Honda Generator.

[Capn Jack]

I bought mine from Mayberry two years ago for under $1000.00, but since then I understand Honda caved in to their retailers and put a lid on "On-Line" sales. Been a while, but last time I looked the site advised me to contact my local Honda distributor.

[bshillam]

Wise Sales and John Hayes both on the net. Wise right now will deliver double boxed and shipped for $879 to Oregon. Not sure on what it would cost for your state.

[CatyMae n Steve]

hmmmm...the GE 700 watt microwave trips the Honda 1000 before it can start it up -- but I didn't know/didn't look for a "reduced power level" switch -- we'll look into that and see if it has one!

Flapbreaker, if you can hold on a couple days til we can get to the microwave to make an inspection -- might be making you an offer instead

Caty

[Sea Wolf]

Here's a strategy to deal with the use of a microwave on your boat:

Rather than have a large generator on board that can instantly handle the load, install a relatively inexpensive inverter that can supply the higher wattage level from your battery reserves, then use the smaller generator to replenish the battery reserves spent, over a longer recharge period.

Using this idea, one could have a 1200 or 1500 watt microwave powered by a suitably sized inverter, and still get by with the small Honda 1000i (or an even smaller older version) generator.

The small generator plus the inverter are cheaper or no more expensive than the larger generator, and the smaller generator is easier to transport and use, and can more easily be shared between multiple boats and RV units.

You can even use your outboard motor to recharge your batteries, eliminating the generator altogether.

Of course, this won't work if you want to run a water heater instead, as the total power draw over the longer heating period would be too great for the battery reserves.

I use this system on my C-Dory and pontoon boat, using the Honda 1000i or the outboard to recharge on the C-Dory, and only the outboard motor on the pontoon boat. On my Sea Ray, I just use the Honda 1000i plugged into the Shore Power inlet to run the microwave. I'll have to check to see how many watts that unit draws.

******************************************************************************

This brings up a whole bunch of issues about how electrical power is developed and used on a boat. Here's my overall strategy and components:

I like plenty of battery reserves and multiple recharge sources and alternatives.

1. The first element is a large battery system with plenty of reserve power.

I prefer not to divide the batteries up for specific functions (engine start, house, special use), and instead just to have one big battery bank of four batteries able to be linked in parallel, using four group 27's with a total capacity of 420 AH. This big combined reserve bank eliminates the need for battery isolators, combiners, voltage sensitive relays, and any other complex and trouble prone systems that few of us understand or can fix!

2. The second element is multiple recharge sources, specifically the outboard engine alternator, a portable generator, and Shore Power combined with a large powerful battery charger.

The engine alternator will be the most commonly use source, with the generator usually coming into play when we have heavier power consumption with the boat at rest, and the Shore Power system is a free lifeline to the good life of electrical fulfillment! The large charger (say 40 amps or so) works both on Shore Power to quickly charge batteries, and also works with the generator to allow the full 120 volt output to be used, as it is about 10 times as powerful as the 12 volt output directly available on the generator. The generator can always be started, of course, and serves at the ultimate backup power generator and battery recharger

3. The next element is the inverter. This allows the creation of 120 volt power without the use of the generator or the Shore Power connection. It's quick, simple, and dirt-free! Plug into it and turn on your appliance! Works with most things you will use on board except a water heater or anything else that draws big amps over a long period. Allows you to use large wattage appliances like a microwave, then replace the charge on the batteries with a smaller generator or the outboard motor. The inverter adds a lot of flexibility to the electrical system.

4. The fourth element is simply a well thought out and installed Shore Power distribution system into which all the above can be integrated. This is a subject in itself, discussed elsewhere, of course.

****The above is my own opinion and a description of how I operate electrical equipment on my boats. YMMV!!! Be careful to think all of this out on your own and be comfortable with whatever you come up with yourself. Different people have different needs and need different solutions. Good Luck with your own system.

Joe.

[flapbreaker]

[Pat Anderson]

Joe, you left out only one thing...with your system of paralleling four big batteries without dedicating a battery to starting the motor, you ought to have a big honking jump start unit on board so you can get the motor going if you should happen for any reason to discharge your batteries too low to start the motor. Maybe you never will. But then again strange things happen. Of course you can wait for the generator to recharge the batteries - but sometimes you just want to get going. Whatever a person decides to do for electrical power, it seems to me a big jump start unit is kind of the ultimate peace of mind.

[CAVU]

Joe,
For many of us with twin engines the picture is a little more complicated. Twins require separate and more complex battery setups. Your system with a single engine is simple and elegant but when dealing with twin engines two separate systems are required. I only have two batteries-one for each engine. They are always isolated and I take all house loads from one battery or the other. While cruising I use #l on odd days and #2 on even days to even out the use. I don't yet have a battery charger but since I just acquired a Honda 2000 for RV use I will install one this next season. This system works for me since I have no high amp draw equipment like heaters or microwaves.

[Sea Wolf]

Pat-

You're right about the jump start unit. I have one in the floor compartment at the foot well for the helm, and leave it plugged into the 120 volt system so it gets charged whenever the system is powered up from either the generator, inverter, or Shore Power. I haven't had to use it yet, but it adds a bit of peace of mind because it's always there. I mentioned this on the other thread on jump start units a couple of days ago.

Ken-

You're quite correct about needing two batteries or two battery systems with twins! Good point! I left this out because I just don't face that problem, so it's not on my mind.

This problem with twins comes about because each motor's alternator is sensing the voltage built up in the battery being charged, and adjusts the charging rate to match the state of charge of the individual battery. The problem when trying to use a single battery bank is that each motor senses the voltage applied by the other alternator and can't do it's job effectively. If one understood exactly what was happening with these sensors and relays, perhaps a system could be designed to overcome this problem. We need an electrical engineer at this point, I guess. Would be a fun project. Might be a very marketable product involved.

Both Pat and Ken have very valid points! I wrote the post once, then lost it in cyberspace, and wrote it again near midnight, so it might have other omissions as well.

Fun talking with you both!

Joe.

[Dreamer]

Joe,

I talked to the chief engineer at Balmar about the "two engines charging one battery bank" question. His opinion was that it can't be done in such a manner as to take advantage of the full charging capacity of each engine. As we know, these outboards don't put out a lot compared to the big 100-200 amp alternators used on trawlers etc.

The simplest solution I could figure, and I'm not an electrical wizard or engineer, was to have two AGM dedicated start batteries. When they are fully charged, which takes a very short time, the BlueSeas ACR connects a AGM house battery to each start battery and brings it up to full charge during the day while running. At anchor, the two 255AH house batteries are connected using the "1,2,both, off" switch. The ACRs open automatically isolating the fully charged start batteries.

The combined 500+amp hours is sufficient for the 2000w inverter and all house loads for a couple of days at least. I also select batt 1 or 2 to run house and electronic loads underway by the odd or even day of the month. This was the most idiot proof way I could think of. If I forget to isolate the 2 battery banks before starting up, no harm is done other than less than optimum charging until I remember.

I think for this Summer, I'll put a reminder tag on the steering wheel or ignition switch.

With the ability to manually connect a house battery or both house batteries to either start battery, I feel a jump start unit is unnecessary weight. I also carry a Honda 2000i for hot water in the AM.

[Sea Wolf]

Roger-

That sounds like an excellent solution to me! Well thought out, practical, and as simple as possible under the circumstances. Great job!

This solution and others of this quality should be documented or made into an easy to find "Sticky" of some type for others to find easily. Some of our best thinking is often buried in innocuous threads that belie what lies within! I could easily sort through all of these threads and write a book digesting the real problems, facts, pros and cons, , and solutions out.

Your work has always been of the highest quality as documented in your photo album, the electrical layout and execution being a model for others to emulate.

I'm looking forward to meeting you and Janet at the SBS/CBGT this month!

Joe.

[thataway]

I went by WalMart yesterday and turned all of the microwaves around to see what the power draw was. The only one which would be handled by the 1000 Honda is the 600 Watt Galvez (sp?). The 700 and 800 watt units refer to the output, not the input--and the amperage draw is over what the 1000 puts out max. The GE 700 watt microwave I have tripped on low, but I will have to experiment some further. We end up using the inverter as Joe says.

There are many ways to wire the two engine boats. But to take max power out of the alternators, two house banks, one off each engine when charging, and then combine them, or use them separately--is the easiest plan.

[flapbreaker]

So how fast would a 2000 watt inverter drain a 110 amp hour battery?

[Sea Wolf]

OK, guys, I forgot to convert the amperage to 12 volts in the process of playing with the dog with one hand and trying to type and think with the other. Guess some of my common sense parameters went out the window too with accepting the answers, so I'll correct my homework errors below in red.

[Larry H]

Joe,

There is more to the story than simple math.

If an inverter is putting out 16 amps at 120 volts, it is drawing 160 amps!! from a 12 volt battery. The ratio of 120 volts to 12 volts is 10 to 1, so the current draw on the 12 volt battery is 10 times the output current at 120 volts. Actually, considering efficiency losses, the draw would be higher.

That 110amp hour battery won't last long when the draw is 160 amps!!

Most 'experts' say that wet lead acid batteries should not be discharged at rates higher than 25% of amp hour capacity so for a 110 AH battery that is 27.5 amps. 27.5 divided by 10 is 2.75 amps at 120 volts, which is 324 watts. (120 volts times 2.75 amps)

A correctly sized battery bank for an 2000 watt inverter would be 160 times 4 = 640 amp hours of capacity. Since only 50% of the bank is available, the run time would be: 320 amp hours divided by 160 amps = 2 hours.

[drjohn71a]

I am with Larry on this one! I do not like inverters at all. We do not have enough battery power aboard to handle the very rapid, heavy loads that inverters put on them. On top of that, there is a 10-15% efficiency loss even on the best setup.

I have two Honda i2000 gensets which can be put together for heavy use on the farm. I do leave one on the boat all the time, though.

They are great, quiet, powerful, and will run a very long time on half load, will run a 9-12,000 BTU A/C unit aboard, heat the water, run a battery charger - whatever. And great resale value too.

John