Some Technical Questions

[centerisland]

Another option might be propane. Norcold makes larger propane fridges, but there are others out there. I just googled and ran across this portable Dometic with tri-power (AC/DC/LP):
http://www.lpappliances.com/RC3000.html

If you already have a propane setup, this might be a reasonable option.

[centerisland]

On the holding plate idea that Bob mentioned...

There's really no free lunch here. Sure, you can use the holding plates as "thermal batteries" (my phrase), but they have to be charged somehow. At the dock you have power, but underway I think the typical C-Dory has much less alternator capacity than the full-power sailing auxiliaries and trawlers these are typically fitted on. If you want to run a relatively big engine for at least an hour a day, then holding plates might be a good solution. Still, they're going to require substantial engineering compared to these plug and play small fridges.

[Doryman]

[thataway]

I believe that the reason that some engine manufactuers say not to use biocide is that they contain materials which might be harmful to the engine--injectors and pump. (Also there is some diesel dilution of the engine oil). Biobor JF is the most common biocide and it contains boron. (dioxaborinanes). There have been some reports that there might be some injector/pump problems from boron compounds. I suspect that this is why Yanmar suggests no biocide--but in the past, Yanmar has suggested biocides, and many engine manufactors still do.

I used the word "Algae" for convience and because it is used somewhat by convention, rather than enumerating the various bacteria,(mostly Pseudomonas aeruginosa) mycobacteria, fungi ((Hormodendrum and Cladosporium) and true algae which grow at the fuel water interface in diesel fuel. These micro-organisms derive the hydrocarbon from the fuel, and oxygen from the water. If you keep water out of the fuel, you will not have the micro-organisms. The metabolic products are acids, & organic sludges. After the biocide acts, killing the bacteria, there will be a sludge which sinks to the bottom of the tank--instead of the microorganism growth at the water (heavier than the diesel) and diesel interface. The water is NOT at the surface--it is under the diesel. Diesel is lighter than water and floats on the water. Your fuel draw tube is usually slightly off the bottom of the tank--and a boat diesel tank should have a drain at the very lowest point of the tank--thus allowing removal of any water.

The micro-organisms may get into your boat in the fuel--if the fuel is contaminated at the storage tanks (be sure that the filter on the fuel dock is changed regularly)--but they can also get into the tank from the air (vents) or water (fills, or vents). Thus is not a new phenominom--it was reported in jet fuels in the 60's --and most likely in diesel fuels prior to this--but not widely recognized. I would hesitate to say that the diesel is less stable--it is more refined, sulfur has been removed, but in many ways the current diesel is a better product than that of 50 years ago. Of course many of the changes in diesel formulatin is due to polution concerns.

[Old Dog]

Just wanted to thank everybody that took the time to respond to my questions.

Feel better about deciding that a month constitutes a long time between diesel engine starts and will change my manual and checklist to reflect what makes more sense in checking the oil level. Appreciate the comments.

The issue surrounding diesel fuel is still of interest to me but given that there is lots of contradictory information available on the subject and most of the available data was produced by folks with a vested interest in the results, it's not worth wasting everybody's time debating it. We all get to make our own choices in this case. For the new diesel owner, it's probably worth a little research on the subject. For us old folks that have owned diesel powered boats and diesel powered trucks and maybe even a piece of equipment or two, it's still probably worth a little research - things change.

Relative to the fridge issue. I've talked to several Norcold warranty service people. Some of them I would be hesitant to let service my cooler. Some of them seemed exceptionally knowledgeable. Among the latter, the consensus seemed to be that these units cycle on and off with great regularity which makes for a more even cooling temperature. Norcold believes that the energy (battery) draw is no greater over a 24 hour period. So - what I have apparently is a fridge that keeps a very consistent temperature by running half the time. Some of you on this site have said that's the way it is. Knowing that the fridge is probably working as designed is good since I can now replace it because I don't like it instead of because it didn't work right.

Nuff said.

[captd]

The three way refrigerator conundrum.
I have had a few slide-in pickup campers , a few motor homes, and a camper trailer or two. Some reefers were two way and some were three way. I have had a Dometic and a Norcold. run the batteries down in the camper AND the pickup, BOTH, while going down the highway. Here the alternator is putting out, what?, maybe 125 amps or more and the batteries go dead. Last pickup had two alternators with the camper package. Upon inquiries to Dommetic, I was informed that you need an isolator between the camper and the pickup. Ok , so the batteries in the camper go dead even faster. They could not explain to me why the vehicle charging system could not keep up.
Propane blows out going down the road and it is suppose to be off in gas stations and passing through tunnels. We started using 12 volt in the morning while traveling than switch to gas in the afternoon so the batteries would charge back up before stopping for the night.
I have had two Norcold 100 lb chest freezers over the years that run on 12 volts or 110 and they could be left on day and night on 12 volts and still have enough power to start the truck in the morning. These freezers would ride in the back seat of the pickup and run directly from the pickup batteries

You tell me , I can't figure it out. Anyone have a solution for this?
Captd

[Old Dog]

Captd,

I'm beginning to think that the solution to these fridge issues is to switch to the ICE technology. It's consistently at 0 degrees centigrade or 32 degrees Fahrenheit, is ecologically friendly after being created, is low maintenance, and over time - simply goes away - quietly.

We're talking about small boats here - not cruise ships. Is it more or less trouble to deal with some of these so called conveniences? There are folks that have sailed the world without electricity, without plumbing (that's over my limit), without engine power. Are they having more or less fun?

Sorry Captd, don't have a clue as to what you experienced.

The creature comforts of these new boats is marvelous. Our R-25 is always warm (this is the PNW - cool is not a problem) - engine heat is superb, the Wallas is more than adequate and a small electric heater while on the dock keeps everything toasty. The hot water heater works well off either the engine or dock power. At anchor off the inverter or on the dock, we have a coffee maker, microwave, toaster, etc and they all work fine. The fridge works even though I don't like it. It's dry - the forward V-berth is comfortable for two. This is luxurious living in a small space and frankly I like it.

I do wonder once in awhile how the non-Medicare eligible set deal with some of this. Back during my introduction to navigation, Orville or maybe it was Wilbur said that one needed to keep track of where you were by looking around but it would get easier. There were road maps and eventually a radio aid or two then ..........and now we have GPS chart plotters. If the U. S. military decided to turn off the GPS satellite system or go back to their encrypted version even temporarily, I'd be annoyed because it makes life easier. But, I wouldn't be lost - charts and keeping track are a habit. Is that true with everyone including those that have always had good electronic help? I suppose this has been debated endlessly at some time on this site.

I do like the luxury of these new boats. Have done it the hard way before and don't have any desire to do it again. But sometimes I do wonder -
ICE was simpler.

[captd]

With all the knowledge on this site, maybe someone can explain why diesel fuel is selling for more than premium gas. It was $3. 41 a gal this week in Kalispell, Montana. I know freight has something to do with it, but than gas is shipped in as well. Gas is about $2.94. Once a long time ago I heard on TV that there is an additive to diesel that is imported and has become very expensive. You never hear trucking companys complain. They just pass the cost on to you and I. We don't complain about the price of diesel, just gas.

Norcold and their retailers (West Marine & Camper World ) have advised me to throw away the 100 lb Norcold chest freezer. $1200 worth. The repair people said they didn't know why it would work for awhile than defrost. I took the freezer to three different repair stations. I replaced the thermostat, now it runs all the time and does not cycle and then defrosts after about a week. It is about 5 yrs old, looks about as good as a new one. Hard to haul it to the dump.
Any experts on this subject?

Captd

[drjohn71a]

I ran across some interesting information about the new, low-sulphur diesel process at a small town's CO-OP truck stop, having my motorhome tires balanced.

Some truckers there say that they are swamped with jobs from the Oklahoma Oil Refineries hauling a type of fertilizer which is made from the sulphur removed from normal diesel.

Of interest is that, they say, the producers are citing the high costs of sulphur-removing equipment as a "cost" to be added to the price of diesel. However, they are, at the same time, on the other side of the same refining area, making a fortune by selling the stuff they are taking out of the diesel since it is a good fertilizer product!

So, a bit of the classic, double dipping of expense add-ons is occurring in that area.

John

[Sea Wolf]

[thataway]

One has to distinguish between the heater/absorbtion/amonia gas refigeration vs the compresser type. The heater type is most effecient on propane, but a very bad choice for the C Dory, because of the issue of ventiallation and propane. If these are used on 12 volts, the heating elements uses a large amount of power--although I certainly think a 125 amp alternator would keep up--even at 50% capacity. The boat should be isolated from the truck changing circuit by a diode or a voltage sensitative relay. Most trucks have a charging circuit on the 7 pin trailer plug--and it is easily rigged to charge the boat battery when on the road.

Generally in the past, friends who are refigeration technicians feel that it is economically not to your advantage to replace the compresser in the small Norcold units. On the other hand, I have had very good "luck" with the chest type--15 years with the first one (which died do to exposure to salt spray) and about 15 years on the current one and still going strong.

[Dreamer]

Joe, You are a scary guy! Switch to De-Caf.

[Doryman]

[captd]

Joe,
Yes it is a 12 volt D.C. or 110 volt A.C. 100 lbs. We use it in the back seat of a 4 dr. pickup. Like I said we have had two of these over the years. We have had zero problems with them using it in this fashion. Really great for a trip to Alaska or hauling shrimp back from Florida. The only boat we used it on was the 45 ft'er ( Chris Craft.) Hurricane Floyd filled it half full of salt water and which destroyed it. It was in the closet in the rear state room. (It would have been a rough ride if we were aboard at that time.) The storm blew in three doors to get the water into the freezer. We never carried it on the C-Dory. Just to big. We would not carry it on the Tug for the same reason. The 60 pd model would be better than most refrigerators in boats. That might be our replacement.

When I called Norcold and told them of my experience with the freezer and the three repair stations I took it to. They told me to call E&B Marine that they were experts on MFT 60. They gave me the phone number. I called it and the phone was answered:" West Marine, May I help you?" Shows you how up to date they are on their dealers. West Marine bought out E&B years ago. She proceeded to tell me they don't do any repairs. Daa......
Joe, we used it on 12 volt most of the time. When pulling into a campground and had 110 volts available, we would plug the freezer back into the camper for the night.

I think I will take it to a local frig, freezer repair and see if they can cobble up some kind of cure.

The battery discharging problem was always with the three way frig in the campers. They seem to draw much more power than the chest type. The propane portion is much more efficient than 12 volt. Possibly the reason the alternator of the tow rig cannot keep up is maybe the charge is limited by the converter in the camper which is always only about 5 amps or so. We found this out with the Ranger on the shake down cruise. Factory installed converter is or at least was much to small.( 5 amps)

Captd

PS. Joe, where can I buy a rig like that? We need something like that here in Montana. Looks like a perfect poaching machine. The only thing missing is a frying pan.

[Sea Wolf]

CaptD-

Thanks for the fill-in on your freezer!

Sounds like finding a local repair shop with someone who understands what he's doing (sadly somewhat less common these days) is the best plan.

Too bad we've shifted so far towards a use/discard/replace mode from one of build a quality product/service & fix it mode.

Good Luck with your project!

P.S.:

I don't really know where you can get one of those devices/poaching tools. It came from a Google Image Search, but Alasgun Mike, I'm sure, could made one up in his shop and customize it to your personal dimensions and tastes!

Trivia Quiz:

How many of youse guys are old enough to remember where the silver lady's head, flowing hair, wings, and body part of the gun came from?

Joe.