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Old Dog



Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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City/Region: Ridgefield
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:01 pm    Post subject: Some Technical Questions Reply with quote

I'm working my way through a revision to the manual I wrote for my R-25 and realize that I could use some advise - actually I could have used advise with the first version but .............

Relative to the Yanmar 110 diesel.

The Yanmar manual says to crank the engine over (without starting) to distribute oil to all the operating parts when it has not been used for long periods. Okay - makes sense. But the question is, what is a long period? A week? A month? Six months? I decided on a month but have no basis for that . Anyone have a thought?

I've routinely added a biocide to diesel fuel in the past but the Yanmar manual advises against that. Not sure why. Thoughts? I did, not because of the Yanmar advise but because it sounded like a really good idea, add an Algae-X Diesel Conditioner between the fuel tank and the Raycor fuel filter. Anyone had experience with these?

The oil level on the Yanmar is supposed to be checked 10 minutes after engine shutdown. It's on my checklist at the helm station and I still manage to forget too often. Any thoughts on how to compensate if checking the oil much later - like the next day before starting the engine?

Different subject. The Norcold refrigerator on my boat runs on a cycle. Plus or minus a few seconds, it runs for five minutes and is off for five minutes. It is the same on AC or DC. It is the same regardless of temperature setting on the fridge. No refrigerator of any kind that I have ever used operates like this so I think it's defective. From some Norcold repair folks, I've heard it's defective but a Seattle area repair facility calls it normal. Question for R-25 owners, does your fridge run half the time or does it run as it needs to every couple of hours if not opened?

Thanks in advance for your info.

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starcrafttom



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can only help with the oil level after sitting 10 minutes. I don't have a diesel boat but I drove truck for 9 years or so. the 10 minutes is the minimum time to allow the oil to drain down. if you check it too soon and get a low oil level and add to much you could cause more damage then not having enough oil. You can check it at anytime after the 10 minutes and get a good reading on the oil level. if this is different then a truck please someone set me right.
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Dreamer



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldDog,

If you're going to check the oil cold, don't be concerned about getting it up to the full mark. Anywhere in the safe zone is fine as the oil expands as it warms up. That's why they want it checked warm after a drain-down period. Realistically, 5 minutes is all that's needed to get 99% of the oil back to the crankcase. Don't overfill!

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thataway



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ideally you would have a pre oiler on the diesel--but I would agree with you that a month would be a reasonable peroid to do the cranking without starting to get some oil into the gallaries and on the surfaces. The longivity of the engine is probably more related to operating RPM, HP per displacement and maintance than the pre-oiling. The Ford Lehmans and Perkins which are relitatively slow speed diesels--(2500 RPM) and last for 10,000 hours typically. The really slow engines (Atlas--400 RPM etc) often last 30,000 or mor hours.

AlgaeX--that is controversial. The polishing and keeping the fuel well filtered is the most important. There has been a lot of question if magnets really do anything, more than the fuel circulation and good filtration system. We have always used a built in polishing system when we were not using fuel on a very regular basis. Diesel engines recirculate fuel, since it is used to lubricate the injection pump and injectors. Some engines re-circulate more than others. The more filtration the better.
I have used bio-bar in the past--but then I had stored fuel for a couple of years and not polished it etc--there was a lot of sediment in the tank and when the new owner got the boat in some heavy seas, the filters plugged up. I tend to use a fuel stabalizer--such as Pri-D and Soltron (Startron), plus circulate the fuel on a regular basis--with a timer or other method of being sure that the fuel is filtered on a regular basis. I have never owned a system which had magnets on the fuel filtration system.

The algae grows at the fuel water interface--if there is no water, then no algae. The algae (I am being a bit global here, since some bacteria are involved)--produces sediments and acids in the fuels--these, as well as the algae.

This cycling is fairly "normal" for Norcold refigerators. You might want to try setting the temp to its highest and the lowest and compare the run time--there should be some difference.

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Thataway
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Old Dog



Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Thomas and Roger. You've helped confirm what I thought they wanted. I think you are right in that what they really want is for for you wait until the oil has had time to get down to the oil pan. So any time after 10 minutes is okay and not over filling is important. Since I often forget anyway, maybe I'll just change my checklist to check the oil level before starting the engine which seems like the right thing to do anyway.

Thanks for the comments, Thataway. As you said, there is some controversy around the use of a magnetic fuel conditioner but there are some very good diesel engine companies that routinely put them in place. There's been a lot written on the subject in the last year. How good the science turns out to be is anybody's guess at this point. The Algae-X conditioner is relatively inexpensive and easy to install, so I did.

I'm not a refrigeration expert or anything but supposedly this unit has temperature sensing. If that's the case, given that a compressor driven unit needs 2 1/2 to 3 minutes for the pressure to drop low enough to allow it to turn back on, it seems like a pretty inefficient design to have it cycle on about every five minutes regardless of the temperature. In fact, if it's going to cycle on and off every five minutes, why have a temperature control at all? By the way, changing the temperature setting had no appreciable effect on the cycle rate - tried that.

At this point, I've lost patience with this unit. It's noisy, cycles on and off all night long, and draws too many amps from the batteries so -- it will either get fixed or replaced. Andrew from the C-Ranger factory mentioned to me once in conversation that he thought the right kind of refrigerator for a boat would operate on DC only since if you have AC available, your batteries are being charged so you can run it off the batteries anyway. I think that's a good idea since it simplifies the system.

I'm still curious what other's experience has been with this unit.

Again - thanks for the comments.
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starcrafttom



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My father got caught by bad fuel this summer in his 44fter. The boat had been sitting for a few years and not used much before that. She has two ford desiels and four filters. now I dont know what size filters where use and whether there was a by pass system or not.
anyhow while crossing from the san jauns back to blaine the folks got in to some really bad wind/tide waves that caused the boat to roll so bad that mom and dad could not stand up let alone walk around the boat. well 10 minutes into this hell one engine dies. No way to work on it then, They anchored in birch bay before dad lost the other engine. one filter was clogged and some junk had made it the injectors. Dad has since replaced all the filters added a by pass with more filters and had the fuel tanks cleaned. The cleaning was not just where they pump the fuel out and filter it and back in again several times, but cut new hatches in the tanks and vacumed the tanks out and washed the tanks with some sort of spray of fuel. any how dad said that the tank had 3 inches of sediment in it. Now the tanks are clean and ready to go. Now this is a extrime case from sitting for years with little or no use, but I feel better that they had the fuel polished and tanks cleaned
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thataway



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best refigeration unit for boats is a holding plate system. Unfortuantely few boats have these. The holding plate is frozen once or twice a day, and contains a eutetic solution, which freezes below the temp you want to maintain in the refer/freezer. This type of system is very effecient, since it runs full time, for a short peroid--and has an effecient compressor. The Norcold units run with a 12 volt DC danfoss compressor--currrently--they used to have a 27 volt AC swing motor compressor. The "AC" is only a transformer to reduce voltage and rectifer to convert to DC--this doesn't have much to do with the refigeration, escept it does add heat.

The boat refigerators are often poorly insullated, and poorly ventillated. One of the best "upgrades" you can do is to put in a 12 volt muffin fan, which is on a thermostat, and will remove hot air as it accumulates. For the most part, the C Dories do not have good ventillation around the reefers--not sure about the Rangers at this point--look for ventiallation, other than the front of the unit.
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Doryman



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
The best refigeration unit for boats is a holding plate system.


Could that be a system built with this refrigeration system?

Also, I am wondering about the feasibility of converting the area under the forward dinette seat (where you put your freezer) with a built in unit using a fiberglass tub, insulating panels and a plate system from this vendor?

Warren

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K7MXE



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:35 am    Post subject: Checking oil on Ranger tug Reply with quote

I also forget myself and heres what I do. To check it prior to starting I
open up the motor by taking off the pressure. Take the oil filler plug out
and let it sit for a while. I don't know if it is correct way to check it cold
but makes me feel good. I think I found that in the service manual but
not sure. Bob Heselberg Eatonville Wa.
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sportner



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old Dog,
The cycling of the refridgerator is not just common to your unit. It drives my wife crazy to hear it start and stop all night long.

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drjohn71a



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old Dog,

While a boat may require more frequent startings and 'heat-ups', Click and Clack from "Car Talk" radio show (NPR) say that it is important to start, warm up and LOAD engines to the point where the acids and damaging chemicals are volatized out of the oil at least once a month. They recommend about 20 minutes under highway loads periodically. Just running the engine without a load may not create enough heat, esp. in a diesel. My motorhome's Cummins diesel manual recommends driving the vehicle periodically during off use periods, but advises against just starting and idling the diesel for prolonged periods. I am certainly no expert on this!

Also, after experiences with refrigerators in boat cabins in the past, I opted for no fridge on my TomCat. I use a cheap di-electric plate unit in the cockpit - not the nice one like Bob of Thataway discusses. I am thinking about getting one of those. In the past, the heat and noise of a small fridge inside the cabin has bugged me many nights and hot days. I've even thought of putting an inexpensive, small freezer somewhere in the cockpit. I use a portable shoulder bag style cooler to keep things cool in the cabin overnite or when I don't want to keep going out to the cockpit for cold things.

The nice thing about those plate units discussed by Bob is that you can have the compressor mounted remotely - not in the cabin.
John[/u]
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lloyds



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had Adler-Barbur (apparently now Waeco) and Norcold on sailboats and the Adler was far and away a better, more efficient unit. The Norcold was too hard on batteries. I did a water trial of a Ranger 21 last friday and have talked to the factory about dropping in a cold plate system where they mount the Norcold. Seems like a much better way to go. You could mount the compressor back out of the way in a very small space where it won't be heard. Don't know why manufacturers think they need front opening refrigerators. Top loaders are so much more efficient and don't take up valuable floor space when you open them.
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Trinity



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We simply turn the refrigerator off at night. Anything like milk goes in the cooler on ice. With the cool nights in the PNW, that works for us.

Nancy

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Old Dog



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is such a great site for gathering information. Lots of useful knowledge and experience out there.

The fridge remains a puzzle to me. I've never encountered one that cycles quite like this one and can't seem to get a definitive answer from the Norcold operation. It's coming out next month and some tests will be run on it so we'll just wait and see. Will post the results. If it turns out that it is operating "normally", then it will be time to explore alternatives.
Must be getting soft. Our early sailboats didn't have a fridge at all.

Here in the PNW, having a trailerable boat that isn't always in the water is a whole new world for me. Even in the rainiest, dreariest months, previous boats always got run hard at least once and usually more often every month. Deterioration of the fuel and oil never seemed to be a problem. Winterizing was mostly about controlling humidity in the cabin. Will have different issues this winter with the boat out of the water (found a lot of good info on this site) but think Mood Magic is going to have to be launched regularly no matter how miserable this winter might turn out to be. Darn - I'm going to have to go boating all winter long for at least a few days a month. Let's see ....It's three hours from Olympia to Seattle and Seahawk tickets should start to get cheap.....

Have done some reading about diesel fuel quality and it is interesting that as the engines have improved, in many ways the diesel itself has gotten worse in terms of stability. Interesting. I mentioned in the first post on this subject that Yanmar recommends not using biocides. The reason is probably because although the biocide kills the bacteria that tends to grow at the surface (where there is water), the dead bacteria just becomes a component of what is sometimes called diesel sludge or more commonly and incorrectly labelled as algae. (There is no algea in diesel fuel.) Filter clogging stuff.

Anyway - after researching the subject and getting some good advice from the C-Brat site, I've decided that a month is probably a good definition of "long time", biocide is probably not a good idea on a regular basis, I'll check the oil before I start the engine and it will be an absolute necessity that I go boating every month - all year. The price one pays to be a boat owner.
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journey on



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C-Dory's also have that Norcold refridge. Made in China, and I defy you to find one that isn't. Anyway, it only operates on DC. There is an AC-DC converter, which goes into operation when ac is available. Unplug it from the AC, and you'll only run on DC. But then your battery charger had better be up to it. The one that came with the C-25 was 5 amps per battery.

The one on Journey On was really noisy, you could hear it outside the hull when it was running. The problem I found was that everything vibrated, especially the heat exchanger, and nothing was tied down. I got in there with some rubber sheet and stainless wire and stopped the vibrations. That did half the job, but then I also put rubber under the mounting screws, and a sheet of plastic under the refridge. At least now we can sleep.

The duty cycle on that refridge is 50%, half the time running, half off. It draws about 2.5 amp hrs average, which is normal in my experience. We had an Alder Barbour and it used 2 amp hrs in So Cal and 2.5 in the South Pacific, like it or not. Neither one ever got turned off and both kept working. That Norcold keeps the beer cold and Judy happy.

Boris
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