Failed Fresh Water Pump - New Location for Replacement

[Bill.Secure]

After several fits and starts, my freshwater pump failed completely about a month ago. I removed it today and disassembled it to determine what was wrong and repair it, if possible. Water had gotten into the pump motor. The bearing at the pump end of the armature was frozen solid and could not be turned by hand.

On my CD-25, the pump is mounted in the bilge under the port battery tray. Water in the bilge can easily get deep enough to cover part (or even all) of the motor case, and obviously the motor case leaks. Before the bilge pump turns on automatically, the water is around two inches deep. That brings the water level partway up the pump motor case. To address this problem, I'm mounting the replacement fresh water pump upright (following directions so the motor will be on top) on the vertical partition under the battery tray. The various replacement pumps I looked at claimed to be water resistant, not water proof. The new mounting location raises the pump motor very substantially and should prevent the problem from recurring.

Unless there is something particularly unique about my boat's pump location, this seems to be to be a potentially generic CD-25 problem. Moving a working pump is a pain, but it may be something to think about.

Bill
Edgewater, MD

[JamesTXSD]

We're dealing with the same situation right now, Bill. I agree that the placement of the pump is definitely the root of the problem. I've visited with Bret at the factory about it, but no word back from them at this point.

When I replace and reposition the pump, it'll be a good time to fix the unsealed holes in the bilge. Another situation that just should not have occurred.

Best wishes,
Jim B.

[journey on]

On Journey On, a 2005 C-25, the water pump is in back of the hot water heater. That in itself seems a long run from the water tank, and the inlet line has a hump which makes it hard to bleed.

However, reading your stories makes the 2005 position seem a dream. Why did they move it, and can't you reposition it? In the aft of the boat seems a long inlet run. The line must go all the way from the tank under the V-berth, and then back up to the sink and shower. Doesn't make sense.

Boris

[JamesTXSD]

Hi Boris,

The fresh water tank in the later model 25s is at the stern. There is nothing but foam under the v-berth. I think it's where your black water tank is; the later 25s have an integrated tank under the toilet. So, the pump is just outside the fresh water tank, but screwed down to the hull... right where any water in the bilge collects. I thought to myself, "This is not a smart design," when I saw it, but figured the pump must be water tight. I was wrong... well, wrong about it being water tight, but not about it being dumb placement. Our pump is also now totally non-functional. It is just a matter of time for any pump in this position.

We're anxious to see how C-Dory intends to resolve this situation. I have requested a new pump from them and I will install it myself. No word back from them for the past week.

Best wishes,
Jim B.

[Al & Pat Parker]

Hi folks,
At least some dealers have recognized & remedy this problem before delivering a new CD-25.
Gene, at Mobile East Marine, Alliance, NC, moved the pump in our boat during setup in July, IIRC it's on a new aluminum angle bracket near the original location, but up out of the bilge water.
I'll try to remember to shoot a pic or 3 today or tmw & get them on my webpage for all to view. (again, on of these days I'll try to figure out how to put up an album here, but it's easy for me to do a webpage which can have more explanatory narrative than the albums. I'll post in this thread when pix are available.
The wet bilge is one of my few peeves about the boat. The bilge pump won't get it anywhere close to dry, and the areas between the cockpit walls & the hull are wet.
Gene & Carrie may have shared some of this sort of tech. tip at the NC Gathering this weekend, I'm sorry I wasn't able to attend.

[Bill.Secure]

Design errors can happen (i.e. the placement of the fresh water pump) and assembly problems can happen. However, the problem with the placement of the freshwater pump was known and was apparently quietly addressed by the more conscientious and better dealers.

It's disgusting there isn't a mechanism (but in fact there really is, this forum) for the factory and the dealers to promulgate information about significant known problems. It was apparently known in some circles that fresh water pumps on newer CD-25s would fail due to immersion in bilge water. In another instance some months back I alerted the factory and this forum to grossly incorrect wiring on the battery charger. Had I not written about it, I doubt the information would have been made available to customers with this wiring error.

I can understand the reluctance of dealers to be public in alerting customers to problems. They are probably concerned as to what might happen to their relationships with the factory.

But I have to ask, what if the problem is safety related? Under current policies and procedures would we be informed in that case? I have my doubts.

I've spent perhaps five hours and a hundred bucks removing the old pump and installing a new one. Sure I'm under warranty, but pulling the boat and towing it back to the dealer in terms of time and effort is a painful exercise. And I'm not nearly as far from a dealer as many other C-Brats.

Here's a strong suggestion for the factory. Make it easy to contact your QA Engineer. C-Brats and others can e-mail him regarding possible systemic problems. He can be given some forum (perhaps a thread on c-brats) where systemic problems and possible resolution to those problems can be posted.

I understand there may be a concern about losing customers. However, businesses that have taken this approach (go back to Johnson and Johnson and the Tylenol problem) have gained customers in the long run. While it's disappointing to learn there is a problem associated with a new boat, it's much more disappointing to learn that the problem could have been rectified quickly and easily while at at the dealer having routine service performed.


Factory folk, it may be time to step into the honesty and openness water. Potential customers are going to be looking at the Internet, are going to see the C-Brats site, and are going to see the QA problems and how you are addressing them. For example, it appears from an earlier post on this thread that Wild Blue still doesn't know what's happening relative to replacing his fresh water pump.

You aren't selling used cars. You're manufacturing and selling new boats. I think customers and potential customers can understand mistakes when they know you're attempting to address them. But I also think that potential customers are going to start having second and third thoughts about purchasing from C-Dory if they look at the C-Brats site and see information about problems is not being disseminated and that problems aren't addressed in a timely way.

We're in a different age, the information age. Take advantage of it. The penalty for not doing so could be severe.

Bill
Edgewater, MD

[Al & Pat Parker]

Hi Bill, et al,
I'm a day or more later than expected (happens regularly), but I've taken some pix of the Fresh Water Pump mounting that Gene at Mobile East Marine put in our 25 before we took dely. They're posted on my webpage, along with a cupla pix that might explain why I didn't get it done yesterday.
http://www.boatanchors.org/C-Dory25.htm

[Bill.Secure]

Thanks so much for the info and the pictures. For the moment at least, I have mine mounted opposite yours, on the bulkhead separating that part of the bilge from the fuel tank. It seems to be working perfectly in its new position. If I can figure out how to post pictures, I'll take a few of the pump in its new location

I'd think about remounting it to a position that disrupts storage less, but that area is so wet, I've stopped even stowing my fenders there.

Bill
Edgewater, MD

[JamesTXSD]

The orginal mounting is to the left and inside that tight opening in the background of the first photo. A giant pain in the butt to get to. After a discussion with the factory, there is supposed to be another pump on its way. I intend to mount a block in roughly that same place and put the pump on top of that, keeping the pump horizontal.

The shelf that the house batteries are on will have to come out to get the pump out. At that point, I'll re-evaluate where best to mount the new pump.

Best wishes,
Jim B.

[Pat Anderson]

Jim, when you say "after discussions with the factory" is there one person you are referring to? Is there somebody else besides Bret Reynolds who deals with stuff like this? I don't have any issues I know of, but am curious. Also, mounting the water pump in this location just blows me away, what the heck were they thinking? Was anybody there paying attention?

[JamesTXSD]

Hi Pat,

I originally started the conversations with Bret. He later turned me over to Frank Walters. I had several items that I considered warranty. Since we don't have a dealer within 1000 miles of our home, I asked if they could send some items for replacement and I would do the labor... less expensive for them, less hassle for me. At this time, I haven't received the parts (just spoke with Frank on Monday, two days ago), but I am happy with the proposed resolution. None of the issues, btw, were what I would call "quality" related; "quality control" perhaps, but nothing really boat-function related.

The pump was mounted near the fresh water tank... good intention, less than stellar execution. I am sure you won't see this practice continuing on newer boats. I also had a very interesting conversation with Tom Latham several weeks ago; I think the factory is on the right track. They know there were problems and are taking (have taken) the steps necessary to correct that situation.

I think you'd enjoy meeting Tom, Pat. He's very personable; even plays guitar. You might find that you two have a lot in common.

Best wishes,
Jim

[Bill.Secure]

Jim,

You don't need to remove the battery shelf. The two forward most screws can be removed (with diligence) by an L-shaped screwdriver (or by drilling small holes in the battery shelf and using a fairly long screwdriver). There are two additional screws quite aft of the pump but they go through rubber feet that sit in tracks on the metal of the pump. The pump can be then be pulled forward and off of the rubber feet. Once the pump is out of there, you can reach the screws holding in the rubber feet.

My largest concern was getting water in the screw holes before I had a chance to fill them. I emptied the fresh water tank into the bilge with the bilge pump turned on manually. Part of what made this work was pulling the hose from the fresh water tank as ar forward as I could and aiming it at the base of the bilge pump. This kept the area where the pump had been sitting dry (as dry as it gets at least in my bilge).

Bill
Edgewater, Md

[Edward Thieme]

Just read about the problems with the location of the pump, so far mine has been OK but I check the bilge and turn the bilge pump on by hand before the water gets to high.

I agree it's location is a problem and the day after reading about the problem moved mine on top of the shelf where the battery is. While I had the pump out using a hose and bucket I found the pump would lift water at least 1.5 ft. The pump is still below the top of the tank at this location but since I am in Colorado and it is winter will not put water in the tank for an actual test for a while.

Thanks for all the information about this problem.

ED

[GaryPalsgrove]

I had the same problem on C-Song last year and notified the factory with no results. I contacted Carrie at Mobile East Marine (great people to deal with) and she had the Factory send me a new pump. I mounted the new on in the original manner and, guess what? It froze up the same way!

After careful consideration, I came up with a mounting simular to the one that Mobile East Marine apparently now uses on new 25 Cruisers. Hope it will work.

The thing I found most ammusing was the wording contained on the pump itself:

"For marine applications replace with Jabsco Model #31395-0092"

If use on a C-Dory 25 is not a "Marine Application", what is?

Gary Palsgrove

[tsturm]