Paddle Wheel & Water Temp

Doryman · Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:29 am Post subject: Paddle Wheel & Water Temp

I have a through-hull transducer for my Raymarine E-80 that works very well. However, I would like to add the capability of measuring the speed through the water (paddle wheel) and the water temperature. I have also been considering getting a second fishfinder and transom-mount transducer (for redundancy, and to provide a fishfinder at the aft steering station.) But I am loath to give up the ability to tie into my GPS, waypoints, etc. that my E-80 provides. According to my Raymarine dealer, I can't have the output of my through-hull transducer going to more than one device, which indicates to me that transducers are not on the NMEA 2000 bus, but I'm not clear on that. I have the (expensive) option of getting a 2nd E-80 display for the aft station, or the (inconvenient) option of moving the E-80 back and forth between the forward and aft steering stations.

I'm hoping that someone reading this will have some ideas that I haven't already considered.

Warren

JamesTXSD · Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject:

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is changing out the transducers and keeping your other electronics all the same. Of course, that doesn't solve getting a fishfinder display to the aft steering station. With these boats, you could just drop the head curtains and see the display at your inside station from the aft steering.

Humminbird makes inexpensive FF units that you could have at the aft station for $100 bucks, IIRC.

If you were dealing with a flybridge, it might be a different story, but I can see my display from the cockpit. HTH.

Best wishes,
Jim

Doryman · Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject:

"Do nothing" is certainly an option. As you say, the display can be read through the head windows.

I am not going to disconnect the current transducer as it is too good to not keep as my primary. Raymarine makes some speed/temp devices that connect to a transom transducer but was not able to find one that will work with my display. I have a request in to Anacortes Marine Electronics to find out if there is such a speed/temp device available.

Thanks for the suggestions. Working at the Jackson marina sounds like it would be a fun job, and what a beautiful setting!

Warren

thataway · Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject:

I would buy a separate Hummingbird depth sounder with paddle wheel/ temp in the transducer. This is probably the cheapest (except do nothing) and gives redundancy, with the second depth finder aft. I always have two depth finders on the boats. Interestingly enough in shallow water there is usually enough separation to avoid interference. In deeper water I cut one off if there is interference--but if one is a 200 khz and the other 80 khz, they will work fine.

gljjr · Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:14 pm Post subject:

Many of the Lowrance units now use the "LowranceNet" that is NMEA 2000 compliant (I think it uses different plugs but that is it). You won't get sounder at the front over the NMEA bus BUT you will be able to get depth and speed over it from what I have been told. Then you could also get the Lowrance fuel flow meter and tie it into the system too.

thataway · Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject:

Gary,
The most recent Lowrance products use the standard NMEA 2000 connectors---you can buy these plugs and convert older units if you want.

I like Lowrance sounders, and the fuel flow systems. I believe that the small guages (2""LCD) will show speed and temp, if necessary). I believe the Lowrance Sounders still use NMEA 0183 protocol. I suspect that the Ray Marine also are still using NMEA 0183.

gljjr · Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject:

Bob,

I had read that they were going to change the plugs but I haven't done the research to know for sure. Thanks for the heads up.

I have used both Humminbird and Lowrance sounders for years. I like both. But the new LowranceNet stuff makes me lean that way.

The reason the Lowrance Sounder isn't on the NMEA bus is that it is too much data to go across the NMEA Network. IE: It could interfere with mission critical data flow and would be too slow.

Warren, Check out the Lowrance LMF-400 multi-function gauge. It will likely do everything you would want in a small package (Provided you don't want Sonar).

thataway · Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:03 pm Post subject:

I have the Lowrance LMF 200 (2" guage) and I know it will display NMEA 2000 paddlewheel speed, depth and water temperature. (as well as the fuel flow, which I got it for). The proper MNEA 2000 connector is available from Maretron (who have high quality products).

One of the electronics guru's who writes for one of the major magazines told me that the Lowrance sounders were still sending NMEA 0183 data, but I don't know if that is true or not.

The depth sounder display is connected to the transducer on the NMEA 2000 bus, but that does not mean it is using NMEA 2000 protocol. Since the depth sounder data transmits thru the bus, it should be possiable to network two displays--but I suspect that has not been worked out--as the Radar overlay etc has not been completely worked out in Lowrance Products. I have no experience in networking Lowrance with Raymarine products, but would want to be sure that they are compatable. Often there are idiosyncries in the sentencing, so that it may not 100% compatable. (For example I was interphasing a Furuno and Standard--and all of the functions except one worked--Each manufacturer blamed the other.

I have a Lowrance Sounderin one boat--and Hummingbirds in two other boats. The Lowrance gives better detail and resolution, but it is a high end unit, and the Hummingbirds are less expensive units, so comparison is not fair.

mikeporterinmd · Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:52 pm Post subject:

The transducer is sending back an analog signal which is interpretted
by the head unit and turned into a digital display picture and numerical data.

The analog signal has to be digitized by something before it could
be placed on the NMEA bus. I suppose the actual display could be placed
on the bus, but they haven't done that. Technically, it would be difficult
to do in a meaningful manner. How would a sonar digital image produced
by an LMS-337C DF be displayed by a larger unit? And how would a larger
image produced by a larger unit be displayed on a smaller unit? Dynamically
scaled the picture would reduce quality, etc.

So, that's why sonar data is not on the NMEA 2000 bus. However, the
head unit will output depth, I believe. I'd have to check my LMF-400
to know for sure.

Mike

oldgrowth · Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject:

thataway · Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:13 am Post subject:

The Nav net of Furuno, the RayMarine E series sea talk, The Simrad Networking on MNEA 2000, The newest Garmin units and a host of others (basically including any computer networking) is able to send complex data to any sized screens (within the network compatablity)--and act as virtual repeaters. A number of the instruments have eithernet output (to a computer moniter or computer) The NMEA protocol is data streams which are compatable between all instrument manufactures--NMEA 2000 is 26 times faster than NMEA 0183, it allows equitment to be added and subtracted without shutting down and is self configuring. It has networking capability, but in the past each manufacture used their own networking-- The NMEA bus, is just a system of wires and connectors. Any sort of data can be sent on these wires. Even this was not standard, but is slowing comming around--for example the connector change of Lowrance this year. There seem to be several issues which have slowed the acceptance of NMEA 2000 and this includes a licensing fee with each accepted device. Another issue is that this is from year 2000--by 2007, the data transfer world has changed dramatically. Lowrance has not done their networking yet--it will be comming I suspect this next year. They have to be competative.

The Standards paper is at:
http://www.nmea.org/Standards/Publications/NMEA2000ADigitalInterface.pdf.

Maretron has been somewhat of a pacesetter, and you can get NMEA 2000 equiptment specifically which should work with any of the other NMEA instruments:
http://www.maretron.com/products/pdf/pricing.pdf

The NMEA 2000 triducer with depth, speed and temp is $315, vs a complete wire set with display is $1200 (you can buy a very good Lowrance GPS/finder with triducer and flow system etc for this amount) But if your instruments are 2000 capable and the maker does not offer specific equiptment, you can add Maretron components. We are now seeing AIS which is plug and play NMEA 2000.

Doryman · Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:54 am Post subject:

As it happens, I have NMEA 2000 fuel management via my Yamaha Command link gauges, so installing the Lowrance Navman units would be redundant.

Thanks to Mike for explaining why sonar data isn't on the NMEA 2000 bus.

I was looking at the Maretron displays and wondering if they would work with my Raymarine E-80. They are much cheaper!

One of the nice things about having the E-series Raymarine and NMEA 2000 is that I can (I hope) run RayTech RNS software on my Mac (it's Windoze software but I am running Parallels) and network the Mac with the E-80.

Back to the speed/temp. Raymarine makes a dedicated speed/temp unit which plugs into the DSM300 (interfaces the transducer and the E-series display). I think that is the simplest route for me. As for the redundancy, maybe a Humminbird unit that I can also use on the dink might be an answer, just like my backup portable GPS.

Warren

thataway · Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:48 pm Post subject:

Agree that a separate fishfinder is a good way to go, and I suggest that you use Lowrance, since you can get a triducer--which gives both the Fishfinder, paddlewheel speed and temp. These can be sent via the NMEA 2000 to the RayMarine display. No need for a separatte Ray Marine biducer.

One has to understand that the Maretron displays only display NMEA data, they will not display the Sea Talk, which is RayMarine's networking language. The "E" series allow the "picture"--to be sent to a number of navigation screens via Sea Talk--not NMEA 2000 (Data can be sent via NMEA 2000). Also I believe that the Maretron is only black and white--similar to the Lowrance LMF 200 or LMF 400, or somewhat similar to RayMarine ST 40 (does not do NMEA 2000, but does Sea Talk data--not suggested but an example of the display).

thataway · Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject:

Panbo: http://www.panbo.com/ most recent column is on the new Lowrance Connectors, and its interphase capability. Still nothing which will support LCD screens or capability of the E series of Raymarine, but the current system supports my 5 or 6 year old Lowrance 3500 Global chart plotter. A lot better than some manufactures where if it is 2 years old, you can no/longer get parts or upgrades, and have to go to an entirely new system. Some gook links on this page

Doryman · Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:51 am Post subject:

My dealer told me that my Command Link gauges were NMEA 2000 compatible but now that I have searched the Yamaha site it appears that the only compatibility is the gauges can pick up positioning info from an NMEA 2000 GPS.

At the time I was considering the Lowrance NavNet instrumentation, but the dealer pushed the Yamaha units heavily.

I am not sure that it is going to make much difference if I can't display my engine data on the E-80, but it bugs me that I didn't know enough to stand up to the dealer at the time. I didn't know the right questions to ask.

Warren