Best Lifesling Tackle Attachment Point on CD-22?

[DanRichman]

We just bought a Lifesling2 flotation device and the 5:1 lifting tackle designed for use on powerboats. Does anyone have any experience with this safety device?

Specifically, any thoughts on whether the radar arch could handle serving as the attachment point for the tackle? It would be subject to a strain of up to 300 lbs., if the person overboard were a large man, dripping wet.

I see no real alternative to the arch -- probably on its port or starboard side -- as the attachment point, barring the purchase and installation of a davit.

Dan Richman
CD-22 "Nootka"
Shoreline, WA

[DanRichman]

Wow, that's really an interesting question, Dan! I'm sure people on this forum have opinions or experience to share.

[thataway]

Yes, we have been involved with a number of studies on lifting devices. We also met the inventor of the life sling--in San Blas Islands--when he was on a trip from Seattle to Gallapegos, Falklands, Trindidad, Panama and back to Seattle on his 36 foot cold molded sailboat.

The radar arch is the best option--if you can weld a "U" on the outer part of the arch, to get the tackle up as high and outboard as possiable. We have done tests where Marie can lift me out of the water (Different boat) but a 5 or 6 to 1 tackle is the minimum it takes. You have to be able to get the majority of the person's body over the gunnel. It is much more difficult than one would expect. Consider that the person being lifted is not going to be able to help, and the smallest person in the crew will be doing the lifting. We put on wet suits and tried the various devices from the water, with Marie doing the lifting.

Do not consider trying to put a person on the swim platform in rough water. The platform becomes a hazard and can injure the victum--plus the person may not have the strength to get aboard.

[timflan]

I'm a big believer in the LifeSling, although I haven't purchase one for Two Lucky Fish yet. I agree that the arch is probably the best choice. I don't have an arch, so my choices are probably the handles on upper outboard corners of the cockpit bulkhead, Or the rooftop handrails. I don't think the rooftop handrails are really a viable option, so it's the cockpit handles. Perhaps you would allow me to experiment with your LifeSling at one of these CBGTs?

[Alasgun]

Would some sort of hardware item mounted to the roof itself be an option. Thinking possible to add a couple glass layers to the inside for reinforcement on one of the back corners, then doing a proper bolt through with what ever, large pad mounted D-ring, samson post etc?
Or a piece could actually be fashioned to accomplish this if no Radar arch is present.
Mike

[DanRichman]

I'm fine, thanks, Tim! I just "replied" to my own posting to put it back up to the top of the "latest postings" list. It was sinking out of sight without having gotten any responses.

Sneaky, eh? Shh--don't tell anyone. OOPS. Did I say that or just think it? (Thank you, Homer Simpson.)

[Levity]

The LifeSling with 5/1 lifting tackle is a new addition for my boat also. The cabin top grab rails are not high enough to allow an MOB's center of gravity to be raised above the gunnel. Shortening the bridle with a knot placed close to the Sling and the tackle attached at that point allows the MOB's shoulders to be raised above the gunnel. It requires strategy and brute strength to move the MOB from this gunnel-high position into the cockpit. Looping a second line around the MOB's lower extremities provides enough leverage to get the lower half aboard. If the hips are then rotated over the gunnel the MOB can be brought aboard. This is a possible but unreliable solution probably resulting in serious bruising of the already distressed MOB (consider the alternative) and is complicated by the potential interference of the bimini support structure.
Please share solutions to improve the function of a LifeSling on a C-Dory 22.
Regards,
Mike 'Levity'

[thataway]

I agree with Mike--even if you put an eye bolt, with a back up plate (it could be made strong enough)--you can not get a person high enough to get over the gunnel. If the person were wearing a sling type of boson's chair--then it would be possiable--but that is not an option which makes sense. Our safety harness/inflatable life jackets have the D rings for safety tethers, but even this would be close with the corner of the cabin roof.

An entirely different approach is the parabuckle--where a triagular canvas is dropped into the water, attatched to the railing of the gunnel, and then the outer corner hoisted up to the cabin top, rolling the person into the cockpit.

Also one can get more height by just using a single snatch block at the cabin top, and then using the block and tackle in the cockpit--this gives about a foot more hoist because it removes the two large blocks. I think this would work on the 25--not sure on the 22, since the cabin is shorter.

A final different concept is to use the dinghy--even deflate one pontoon to get the person over the side. We have a lot of experience getting large labrador retrievers on aboard dinghies--and it is very doable.

[timflan]

Wow. This is actually a very difficult problem. I just found an article that was new to me. It focusses on sailboats, but the information it contains is really sobering.

http://www.boatus.com/foundation/findings/COBfinalreport/COB%20FINAL%20REPORT.doc

[thataway]

Some of us have been aware of this issue for a long time--probably those of us who have raced sailboats offshore are at greater risk. I fell overboard at sea at age 11--fortunately I was a good swimmer and already had preparation in what to do. My father and I were about 15 miles offshore, in his 26 foot sailboat, with high freeboad--about 3 foot aft--My father didn't believe in life lines, or non skid decks. I had gone foreward to tighten the jib halyard (a like which hoists the fore sail). In those times, the ropes were made of Manilla, a hemp like fiber which stretched with time, and had to be tightened by working it between a cleat and a hand. Althought I had one hand for the ship--a wave came onboard and over I went.

My father turned the boat immediately and came up along side of me (I was to leeward) and hoisted me aboard--he was strong and I was light, but still it was difficult.

I raced offshore for many years, and one of the requirements on my boats was that each crew member had his own safety harness, these safety harnesses had crotch straps, and a lifting point--as well as two tethers. One was 6 feet long, the other 3 feet long. If we were in rough weather we always clipped on "jack lines"--cables, covered with tubular nylon which were secured foreward and aft. We never clipped onto lifelines. There were strong points on the mast, bow pulpit and cocpit, as well as just outside of the cabin companionway. The shrouds and stays were also good attatchement points--capable of withstanding at least 5000 lbs of load. Best to prevent going over board.

We started to carry horseshoe rings in the 60's--along with Man over board poles--a 9 to 12 foot pole of fiberglass (first made from fishing rod blanks), with a flag on top, as well as a foam bouy about 3 to 4 foot up, and a substantial lead weight on the bottom. Attatched to these (2) were horseshoe bouys, strobe lights, dye packets, and floating line. There was quick release--usually reached from the helm. But hoisting aboard remained a problem, if a person went overboard. With a racing crew--we had 6 to 10 depending on the size of boat and lenth of race, getting a person back aboard was still not easy.

We heard of a number of hypothermic deaths even in S. Calif. There was no standard lifting tackle. The life sling was invented and improved. We carried it when it first became available. We found that most of the boats didn't have adequate lifting gear for short handed sailing. We experimented with jumping overboard and seeing if our spouse could get us back aboard. The best solution was a 5 to 6 part block block and tackle--the same conclusion that life sling came to.

US Sailing did a MOB symposium, and the one linked above was an extension of that one.
http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Studies/1986overboardstudy.htm
http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Studies/safetyseminartips.htm#mob
http://www.sailingusa.info/sailing_safety.htm#Crew%20Over%20Board

Power boats and small boats were not perticularly looked at carefully. In larger boats, there is often a place where you can put a lifting point--we had a radar arch, aft on our Cal 46, slightly over 12 feet above the water, at the extreme aft end of the boat. An electric winch as well as block and tackle could be used with it to hoist a person onto the small swim platform we had built aft into the transom. On the Force 50, we had assumed that we would use a hallyard, all of which had winches, on them, or the anchor windlass, which we routinely used to hoist a person aloft to the top of the 62 foot mast with a spinaker halyard.
Getting a hook into the lifting point has always been a problem. With a trawler we considered using the crane davit. We had attached a very short line with a float on it--to the bottom of the Life Sling--again this hoist was 12 feet above the water. Why the distance? Because you have to get the person back on the deck--there will be a distance which the short lifting penent takes up, then you have to get the full length of the person aboard the boat. All of this is compounded by trying to snag the lifting point with a hook on a boat hook in rough water.

The C Dory type of boats have relitatively low freeboard--but still more than most of us or our spouses can bring a person over the side. Remember that a person in the water will be exhausted, possiably hypothermic and not able to climb a ladder. You can still pull or winch a person, even if you do not have the full 10 feet which is required. We put an outside handle on the aft corner of each of our C Dory boats' cabin house. I believe that you could lift a person up partway with a block and tackle (we keep one on each boat)--but to get a person fully aboard would be very difficult without a crane davit. The higher radar arches on the boats could be fitted with an 1/4" or 5/16" "U" ear welded outside of the aft part of the arch, which would be a better attatchment for a lifting point.

Bottom line--C Dorys are safer than most boats--the 22 has a very deep cockpit, the cabin keeps us secure, but there is always a chance of going overboard and we all have to think how we can get back aboard with help from our spouse or boat mate. I believe that someone suggested that a person could stand on the outboard, and the motor tilted up to help them aboard--or out of the water. I see some problems with this--but it also requires some strength from the person in the water....

[colobear]

I have been thinking about this a lot since I have the lifesling but no lift method yet. I have a tall radar arch and will use that as the point of attachment. I will buy the 5:1 block and tackle from Lifesling. Right now my plan is to have a lifting eye and bracket fabricated of stainless steel that I can then bolt to the high point of the two arch tubes on the port side. This will be fairly complex since the arch slants to the stern. I will try to describe in words what I have fairly clearly in my mind and would appreciate comments and suggestions. Ideally I want the eye to stand out 6-8" out horizontally from the arch and to pivot about 180 degrees so I won't run into it when working on the walkaround. I think this can be done by having a 1/4" stainless plate made that will bolt to the two arch arms using U-bolts and welding about a 3/4" by 6" stainless tube to the outside of that plate at 90 degrees to the waterline. The eye itself will be welded to a right triangle shaped brace made of 1/2" stainless rod which will be inserted into the stainless tube before welding it to the plate with the triangle being welded closed after that. I can picture this in my mind and think it will work. I'm sure it can be fabricated but hope it won't cost too much to make.

[mikeporterinmd]

My own minimal experience with being in the water near boats is that you
want to avoid the stern if at all possible. Too many things going up and
down quickly which can really mash you. Of course, at this time, I would
have no choice but to use the swim platform. Just need to make sure I
don't get hit by the motor or the platform itself.

Sounds like we should get a RADAR arch. If that's the case, we might
as well buy a RADAR, too.

Mike

[Grumpy]

Barry,

As per my post on the other thread. We have this already on Kingfisher and I will take some pictures today.
I use a stainless shackle to attach to the radar arch cross piece. (Make sure it fits !!)

It's not 10 feet but it is high enough to be able to reach over the rail and slide someone into the boat
We also carry a"D" ring safety harness which we could attach to someone as a second line of attack. This takes out the "slack" of the big lifesling and loops.

Merv

[thataway]

If you can get a person into a true lifing harness, like a fabric bowsun's chair as used by "Bow men" on racing boats. This keeps the lifting point about at the belly button, vs the life sling, where the lifting point is above the head. However unless you are already wearing a harness/fabric chair, you most likely cannot put it on in the water.

Another other issue is as noted in the other thread on life slings, is that most people are not trained and panic. Panic is the worse thing you can do.

I highly recommend practicing this with one person in a wet suit, the other in the boat doing the hoisting.

For those of you who think you can climb one of these flexiable ladders, or any ladder, I suspect you have never tried it after being in 50 degree water for 10 minutes with your boots and pants on (again getting back to survival techniques-shedding the boots, and pants, tying the legs of the pants and useing the pants as a float). But hypothermia, and fatigue set in very rapidly--as do cardiac problems if you happen to be susceptable.

I second that comment stay away from the stern if you are in any sort of seas--the motor or platform are lethal--bring a person along side and hoist them there--if they are able to help so much the better, but don't assume that.

Marie can lift me (190 lbs) with a 5 to 1 tackle--but you want to be pulling down--not pulling up, to have the best mechanical advantage.

All in all C Dories are very safe boats--and I would think that the incident of falling overboard is much less than many other boats.

The other issue is communication--we both carry personal EPIRB, which are waterproof and GPS enabled. We also carry a small strobe light/flashlight combo, and a submersiable VHF radio. If you go overboard--you have a better chance of being picked up with communciation and distress call.

Also the inflatable life vests, with safety harnesses built in, which have a crotch strap are a pretty good substitued for a liftingharness. The problem is getting a lifting hook into the D ring.

[ppriest]

Your scheme to use a sling and a 5:1 block adn tackle is precisely the plan I have in mind for our boat, a 22 Cruiser. My plan of attack is to avoid any modification of the high arch but to take advantage of the presence of the fore and aft struts on either side of the radar platform. I believe that a satisfactory anchor point can be accomplished using 3/8" rope wrapped around both the aft arch tube and the fore and aft strut leaving a downward loop right at the juncture of the pieces of tubing.
Two of these could be attached, one on each side of the radar platform, for a modest investment of time and materials.
the 3/8" nylon certainly provides adequate reserve strength to suppost the estimated three-hundred pound wet person.

I'll let you know what kind of luck I have with this scheme.

Paul