Tomcat vs 25 Cruiser

[cdworld]

We sold our 1999 Nordhavn 46 in 2002 after living aboard for a year. We have been boatless ever since --- and feeling it. When I saw the C-Dory I knew I had found our next boat.

I am looking to join the C-Dory clan. I am trying to figure out if a Tomcat or 25 Cruiser will better suit my needs.

We plan to cruise in Muskoka to start, then great lakes/north channel, then all the rivers and canals on the east coast.

We have two girls, 7 and 4. We want to bring 4 bikes and/or kayaks (probably or

I am trying to decide which boat makes more sense.

Things that concern me are 1) payload 2) sleeping arrangments 3) speed 4) skinny water 5) ease of loading at boat ramps 6) rough weather handling.

Any experience or insights appreciated.
Thanks

[journey on]

Wow, I'm gonna love to see how this plays out. Those with C-25's on the left, those with Tomcats on the right, and begin firing.

If cost, boat mileage or towing ain't in the mix, go for the biggest you can haul. The Tomcat has a bigger berth (which the C-25 could use) and the rest of the qualities are about the same. Except top speed, which the Tomcat wins hands down. The C-25 will get up to 20 knts when loaded for cruising, but then it has 1/2 the HP of the Tomcat.

The Southern Boris

[thataway]

There are many who have owned both and can probably give you a better idea. I have owned a Tom Cat for 9 months, owned a CD 22 and just purchased A C D 25 (for a second boat on the West Coast) It is going to be cramped with two kids and semi full time in either boat.

I would say of the two, that the Tom Cat might be your best shot. But I would consider the C Ranger 25 tug trawler unless speed is important. Figure more on high trawler speeds. The sleeping would be much better on the C Ranger, with the large "quarter/coffin" berth for the girls, good storage for the bikes on the cabin house. This boat also has a built in genset and marine air conditioning.

The Tom Cat is faster and almost as economical as the CD 25. The cruising speed of the Tom Cat can be from 15 to 35 knots. The range will be close to 300 miles or more, depending on conditions. The ride will be better in the Tom Cat. The foreward bunk in the Tom Cat is the largest of the bunch and close to a queen, plus. The dinette is a large twin. The galley in the C Dory and Tom Cat is about the same, as is the head. the cockpit is larger in the Tom Cat. The motor bracket makes a great swim step and place for the genset. (Honda)

My impression is that your cruising speed in the C D 25 will be from 15 to 25--perhaps a slightly smaller range than the TC (smaller fuel tank). However the CD will do fine with a single engine (and I like a kicker for backup). The bow can be trimmed down or the boat kept on a low speed plane in lumpy weather--but it will be a bit harsher than the TC. However in the ultimate seas--there may be some things in favor of the CD 25--that is it does better in steep seas at a very low speed. The TC you do best to get up on top--but there comes a place where you cannot do that because of the size of the seas.

Skinny water: We take the TC 255 over a sand bar which can be only 18" during winter lows, with the engines running (slowly and tilted up)--we have the option of using the dinghy engine, mounted on the swim step bracket to power the boat in 15" to 17" of water--the dinghy engine mounted between the two hulls will not hit bottom in this configuration.
You probably can run the CD 25 in slightly shallower water. Launching the CD 25 is slightly easiser, but with the 8' slicks on the trailer, we have not had any problems launching yet---

I would suggest that you sea trial each of the boats in rough weather--or at least 2 to 3 foot seas with the family aboard.

Good boating and welcome aboard. I am sure that others will have more to say--and their comments may be more valid on the CD 25 than mine.

[drjohn71a]

CD world,

You might try searching for threads of this comparison, 'cause there are many.

The CD 25 and the TC 255 are very different performance-wise. One is not especially "better" than the other - you have to pick the one that best matches your intended usage.

The CD 25 is going to be more fuel efficient, much easier to load and unload, lighter to tow, and much less expensive to operate. Owners have a wide range of cruising speeds from slow, hull speeds on up. They will not be able to go as fast in a 2-4 foot, choppy sea as a TomCat, but I understand that they pound less than the 22 footers in medium chop situations. Many like the cockpit corner seats in the CD 25.

The TomCat's forte is cruising at 22 and 33 knots in failry rough 2-4 foot seas. The TomCat is most fuel efficient when planing at these speeds. While the TomCat can cruise very slowly at hull speed, the design has alot of wetted surface and deck drag when not planing, so mpg is WORSE going slow than going faster.

The TomCat is a very stable platform, and it is extremely controlled and has a confident feel when those waves are condensed to froth and kind of cushioning it's ride. The widely spaced outboards allow you to spin it on a dime!

Accomodations: The forward TomCat bunk is gigantic and luxurious. 'hard to really appreciate until you roll down in there. The TomCat cockpit seems larger, or at least more usable space. The tomCat's full width swim platform/engine mount is like a back veranda. Lots of space for extra stuff, generator, bait, ice chests, etc..

The cabins are almost identical, other than the forward bunk and the TomCats vast array of high volume hull storage areas - much more storage room in the TomCat.
The TomCat sits very high on the trailer due to the twin hulls and, as such, is much tougher to trailer than the CD 25. The weight with fuel, engines, and gear is around 9-10,000 pounds. If you're going to be moving it around alot, the CD 25 would be much easier to load and unload to my thinking. Either way, they are both OK for that, so choose the one that best fits your usage pattern.

While some have reported going slow in a TomCat using only one engine, others say that creates strong, off-centered drag. Whatever combination, the TomCat will never cruise slowly as efficiently as a CD 25.

Maintenance: Engine maintenance is DOUBLE for the TomCat.

Good luck and welcome !

John

[drjohn71a]

Oh forgot the kayaks...

I have a Hobie Adventure Island which loads easily from the bow to the roof rails since the TomCat bow rails run almost straight side to side. This allows sliding things onto the roof from the bow. You don't have to disturb the camper canvas, fishing rods, etc.. And, you can load something from the beach straight up onto the roof! (while beached)

Also, more room for bikes and toys!

John

[JamesTXSD]

First let me say that these are both great boats. It was very eye-opening to cruise for 5 weeks with our CD-25 and Brent and Dixie's TC255... they are very different animals. They could definitely go faster in chop than we could (comfortably). The fuel usage differences weren't as great as I thought - it seemed that we were maybe 10-15% less fuel to cover the same miles. Our boat pounded much less with any wave action at anchor. They have storage space that seems never-ending compared to our boat. Their cabin floor is higher than ours (and my head and I appreciated their taller cabin door). It is certainly possible to cruise these boats together, with some compromising on both parts. In retrospect, I think we each bought the right boat for our individual cruising styles.

Now, to get to some of your specific questions:

* Payload: the TC seems that it will handle more, but both boats feel it when you load 'em up. Lighter may be better, but neither of us are minimalists.
* Sleeping arrangements: You have a berth up front and the dinette. Nothing magical about the space of either. I understand that there are folks who routinely sleep 3 or 4 on these boats, but they are really designed for a couple (IMHO). You can make most anything work, but (for us) having to convert the dinette every night would get old fast. And, those same 4 people have to eat (usually at the same time)... the forward seat of the CD-25 is wider than the TC255, but either is going to be a crowd with 4 at that dinette.
* Speed: The TC255 is MUCH faster than the CD-25. But, we could cruise slowly more comfortably and economically (at displacement speeds). To run together, we ran faster than our usual and they ran slower than their usual. So, it kinda depends on your cruising style for which one is better here.
* Skinny water: Either will do fine down to about 2 1/2 feet... slowly and with the engine(s) tilted up. This ability gave us more options when it came time to find good places to anchor. I'd call this one a draw.
* Ease of loading at boat ramps: We didn't launch/load together, but the bottom of the CD-25 sits closer to the road on the trailer (since it can sit between the fenders instead of over them). I'd give this one to the CD-25. We think this boat is a piece of cake to launch/retrieve; about 1000 pounds less all up, too.
* Rough weather handling: Both are good. The CD-25 will have to slow down sooner than the TC255, but when things get really snotty they are both down to displacement speeds.

Now for some opinion: I would go stark raving mad with more than a couple on these boats for an extended time. Certainly, with a couple small kids, it would be easier than traveling with another full-size couple... but eventually those kids are going to get bigger. Hey, you could take the family camping in a 4 seat econobox, but you're going to be more comfortable (and less on each others' nerves) in a full-size van. I understand the manufacturers' marketing hype for more "berths", but just because you could, it doesn't mean everyone should. Obviously, to keep harmony in the family, lots of time on-shore is going to make life easier. Now, keep in mind that we have no grandkids (and no real prospects for such on the horizon), but I'm guessing my opinion on space would likely change if our daughter and son-in-law ever decide to bless us with a grandkid. Still, there is the concern of where to put everybody, their stuff, potty/shower time, privacy, etc, etc.

I have no idea where you'd put 4 kayaks and/or bicycles on either of these boats. We carry our dinghy on top, and feel we don't really have room for even a couple folding bikes. We'd need to learn to be more like El and Bill or get a bigger boat.

$$$-wise, similarly equipped, the TC255 is going to be $30k (+/-) more than the CD-25.

Good luck with your decisions.

Best wishes,
Jim B.

[Sarge]

I kind of kick myself for not having looked closer at the TC255 before purchasing a CD25, because I thought the TC was quite a bit more expensive but the ultimate cost of each is closer than I first thought.

I'm going to chicken out and say that you can't go wrong with either.

From reading what others have written, to me the big differences are:

1. speed
2. the necessity for dual motors on the TC255 and the associated maintenance and expense
3. sleeping arrangements
4. wave movement while anchored

If you know your preferences to the above, you've made a decision!

Overall, your best decision was to chose a C-Dory boat!

-Sarge

[cdworld]

Thank you for the comments and suggestions.

I am leaning towards a TC but I will wait until I sea trial as suggested here.

Does anyone know what the updates are in the 2004-2007 model years are for both boats?

Thanks
Andre

[Pat Anderson]

The big thing here to me is the two kids and four bikes - I think you want a Nordic Tug not a C-Dory! Or the Ranger 25 tug if it has to be trailerable, and even then you will be stretching the capacity of the Ranger. (Have never owned a Ranger, but have spent a fair bit of time drooling over a couple before deciding it was not exactly the right boat for us for our cruising style).

I don't know about the TC but no way that Mom, Dad, two kids and four bikes are going to happen in any reasonable way on a CD25. The roof will hold a dinghy or a couple of kayaks. For sleeping, Mom and Dad in the veeberth, one kid on the dinette berth (and as Jim says, converting that every evening and morning will get old fast), and the other kid where? In the aisle? On a cot in the cockpit? Kudos to Bill, El, Brad and Bryce Fiero who were able to do this in a CD22 (Halcyon) minus the bikes but as you know (or will learn) they are pretty unusual people - and to all, PLEASE keep Bill in your thought, his surgery was yesterday, and we have not heard anything yet.

I think everyone has pretty well nailed the differences except one - I think Jim is way low on the price differential when he says $30K. I am just going by what Les (EQ Marine) told me, but with the stuff you really want on both these boats (trailer, electronics, autohelm, canvas, etc.), new CD25s are going out the door at about $90K while TCs are closer to $150K - about a $60K difference. The least you could get a TC out the door for is probably $130K and that would still be $40K more than the fully loaded CD25. Of course coming from the Nordhavn I assume the money part is probably not your main concern!

[drjohn71a]

Andre,

I don't see any problem with putting four normal width kayaks on a roof rack of either boat. I've seen four or more kayaks atop mid sized cars. The TomCat has such a large, broad, flat forward deck that manuvering up there is easy. Most racks allow a tilt (yaks up on sides) and most good kayaks are narrower than 28 inches.

Also, while I do not have grand kids myself, my friends do, and I think the TomCat will allow for more water towing sports than a CD-25. Yes, alot of fuel, but they tire out pretty fast. The early planing of the TomCat makes a good wakeboard tow boat.

While the TomCat is not a racing boat, the feel of piloting it is like driving a BMW M3 with racing suspension, tight rack steering, and 18" wide racing tires. The feeling of tight control.

As far as wave slap while anchored: I had a similar problem on my old, tri-hull houseboat, so we would run the anchor off one of the forward corners. That held the hull with the corner into the waves and cut back alot on the wave slap. I think the same would hold for getting the TomCat's flat tunnel entry angled into the waves - on moderate seas, of course. That setup also reduced the "sailing on anchor" effect.

Good luck,

John

[cdworld]

We are planning to use this boat in the summer and for weekends. We are not planning to live aboard as we did with the Nordhavn.

Daydream, I love what you have done to your boat. C-Dory should copy some of your mods.

Thanks for your comments.

[Pat Anderson]

Thanks, but credit where credit is due. David on Anna Leigh is the designer / builder of pretty much all these mods - Patty and I are just the beneficiaries. The "old" C-Dory Company custom built the David-designed under-galley floor and fold down door - I doubt that the "new" C-Dory Company could or would do that, it doesn't fit the mold...but this a whole 'nother thread.

[Sea Wolf]

[thataway]

The TomCats earlier than 2006 were the 24's, a much different boat. I don't see a lot of difference in the years, than some differences in individual boats in the 2006/2007/now 2008 Tom Cat 255's. There were a lot of variations in the early boats, then the factory decided that they wanted all of the boats to be the same. I am not sure about fuel capacity--mine (#39--June 2006) has 150 gallons. Some of the early boats had 130 gallons. I hear that there have been some changes in the fuel tank venting, and other minor changes.

The problem with water toys might be the rooster tail--I would not tow my grandkids with my TC on tubes. (I use a smaller boat for water sports)

[squidslayer]

I had a 22 ft C-dory for years and really loved it.
Now I have a 2007 TomCat and I'll tell ya its' 4 times the boat as the ol dory
The 25 C-Dory is the same length as the TomCat but is only HALF the boat.
The 25 weighs 3000lb w/out engines
the 255 weighs 6000lb w/out engines
The twin hulls with an air cushon in the middle and twice the wave crushing weight it rides twice as good or better that a monohull.
I had my TomCat last week comming back thru the Golden Gate in 10 ft head seas and on the the way back surfing 12 ft following seas at 15sec....it handled wonderfully in following seas sometimes surfing at 30kts with NO handling problems..no tendency to broach... or lose control when you hit bottom...alot more stable than my 22 Dory. Also when drifting its like being on a gyroscope
If you want to test drive one on Vidio...go to this wonderfull Boat Review site.
http://www.boattest.com/boats/1106/overview.aspx
There's nothing like a Cat

Dick
Orinda
Ca
ShirleyMae