windlass

[jennykatz]

My windlass went out again on the Duck ?? I have the sprint 400 that I replaced about 6 months ago I bought the same one(sprint400) that came with the duck I used the 25 amp breaker and switch from the original The wire 10guage i believe goes from the windlass to the breaker and switch then all the way back to the battery switch.in the lazerette. The first sprint that went out the magnets on the sides fell offinside the motor I really dont want to take this apart I have to find my reciepts and call the internet store any suggestions before i call simpson -lawrence sprint windlass dealer??

[Sea Wolf]

jennykatz-

I'll let others tell you about how to handle the waranty issues, but will give you some suggestions on the windlass use.

The distance from your batteries in the stern up to the helm and to the windlass probably approaches 50 feet, roundtrip.

It's very important to use large enough wire to keep the voltage drop reasonable.

Your S/L Spring 400 has a 400 watt motor in it. To get 400 watts at 12 volts, you have to draw 33 amps (12 v x 33 amps = 400 watts). You probably have a 40 or even a 50 amp circuit breaker in the system. The motor can draw a lot of amps when it stalls out or is heavily loaded!

According to the wire usage tables in the W/M catalogue (p.552, 2006 ed.), a draw of 40 amps with a round trip of 50 feet needs a gauge 6 wire to carry the load with a 10% drop in voltage. The resistance of 10 gauge wire is two and a half that of a 6 gauge.

What happens when a too small gauge wire is used , is that the resistance drops the supplied voltage to the motor/appliance/ or electronic device.

The decrease in voltage means that the motor has to draw more amperage to do the work. More amps at lesser voltage means more of the energy is lost into heat in the coils and armature of the motor.

Another way to say this is this: Higher voltages have a greater push to overcome the internal resistance of the motor, and with additionally, they also create stronger magnetic fields, which makes the motor's use of energy more efficient. The resistance becomes less of a factor, and less of the energy is wasted on creating heat in the motor's wiring.

So if the supplied voltage is too low, the motor pulls excessive amperage and overheats as a result.

Motors like the windlass and engine starting motors, when overheated, frequently melt the solder in the armature's commutator, throw windings, or melt the wiring. Too much heat can kill any motor.

I'm not sure that this is what happened to your windlass motors, but it's something to consider.

Funny enough, the windlass often comes with fairly small gauge wiring itself. As long as the battery is close, no problem! But put it 25 x 2 feet away, and one ought to get out some big stuff!

I have a Simpson/Lawrence Horizon Express on the table behind me with a 1000 watt motor, and with 6 gauge wire coming out of it. If I install it in my Sea Ray, I'll have to use 2 gauge wire, which is regular battery cable sized!

Hope this helps!

Joe.

[jennykatz]

So maybe i have melted the windings of the motor because of using existing wire so i should see if i can get another windlass under warrantie or maybe change out the wire first and see if that improves it either way i need to look at the wire and increase the size to maybe a num 6i guess i should change the 25amp fuse to 40 or 50 amp why did sprint sella windlass with such a small fuse???

[Sea Wolf]

jennykatz-

If S/L equipped the windlass with a 25 amp fuse/circuit breaker, I wouldn't put a larger one in line, at least yet. 25 amps x 12 volts = 300 watts, but I seem to definitely remember it having a 400 watt motor. Maybe they wanted to be very protective of the motor, so limited the fuse/ circuit breaker to 25 amps.

This year they have changed the models around so that the Sprint 400 is no longer produced, and it has been replaced with the V 700, which draws a max. 45 amps and has a 500 watt motor.

I wouldn't tell the service representative too much about your wiring size. That might let them out of the waranty.

Other possible causes of overheating are simply overloading the windlass, such as using it to pull the boat to the anchor, or breaking out the anchor with it. You're supposed to motor up to the anchor, tighten the rode up with the windlass, wrap the rode around a cleat, and then use the boat's motor to pull the anchor loose. After it's loose, you can raise it with the windlass.

More to think about!

Joe.

[mikeporterinmd]

10 guage with a 50' round trip is pretty light. At high loads, you are
going to see a large voltage drop and high heat in the motor.

The windlass can have short, lighter weight wires coming out
of the motor because the drop across those wires isn't going to be
that great --- because the wires are short. So long as the wire
is rated to handle the current without overheating, the short lengths
won't matter. It's the long run from the battery to the windlass and
back that matters.

Consider the size of the wires in the actual motor windings...the wire
in the windings is going to be much smaller than a long feed wire
should be.

Mike

[Rob & Karen]

[drjohn71a]

Rob - I am thinking that question has to do with how long and hard the anchor has been set, as well as in what bottom type. Most of the time, in my boating history in the MidWest, we could motor/windlass combination up to vertical, then break the anchor loose by driving, then finish windlassing.

I think Joe is saying that it's hard on the windlass to put that extra force of breaking the anchor loose in a hard set situation, so you need to tie off the anchor line to a cleat before putting excess pressure.

Many ppl run looped line around the anchor line so they can pull the anchor line alongside to tie it off before driving over the anchor to break it loose.

John

[Dora~Jean]

Most of the time (90%?) my anchor dislodges after I've pulled up all the slack while motoring forward slowly. The motion of the boat while moving directly over the anchor pulling the shank usually breaks it free. However, remember you have to tie off your anchor rode at your bow cleat if you're overnighting (and I route it off the bow roller), or leaving your boat for even a short time, or if there is wind, the windlass (nor bow roller) isn't designed to carry a constant load while OFF.

[Sneaks]

My Sprint 600 windlass KIT came with a 30 amp breaker. I see no reason to increase that breaker size recommended by the manufacturer.

Simpson Lawrence recommended the breaker be located near the batteries, something that I was unwilling to do so I simply connected #6 from the existing main 50 amp battery breaker in the starboard lazarette to the S/L breaker up in the helm area and used #8 duplex from the helm controller to the windlass itself. Total distance 20 ft. (40 ft. round trip and I had some wire left over.) This is a genuine C-Dory C-22.

At no time has the motor lugged down during retrieve. It does get warm to the touch on retrieve but certainly not uncomfortably so. Do I recommend using "light gauge" wires similar to the "Jenny B"? Nope. Follow the engineer's advice if at all possible but don't be afraid to experiment if you have the materiel and the time to play with it. The motor may be rated at 400/500 watts but it only pulls the max amperage for a very short time unless you have an all chain rode and like to use the windlass to break the anchor loose.

Don

[El and Bill]

Rob --

The answers above speak to the technical part of your question, but I'll take a slightly different tack -- why do we have a windlass?

We have only a few times deployed or retrieved an anchor from within the cabin, using the windlass -- during heavy rain and wind. Those times we have gone to the bow, when the rain later slacked, and 'tested the hook' with some tugs in reverse by the engine, then cleated it.

We find that 'feeling' the anchor set by keeping a hand on the rode as the anchor sets 'tells' us about the bottom conditions and how well-hooked the anchor is. That requires one of us at the bow. Then we cleat her off. Knock wood, we have yet to have an anchor pull free after an overnight set.

Retrieving, one of us is usually at the bow to 'feel' the release of the hook as the skipper gently drives ahead to dislodge the hook -- this protects the windlass from too strong a push by the boat -- if the hook doesn't release with a gentle nudge, the bow person cleats the rode and then we can get more push on the anchor without stressing the windlass.

So -- why have a windlass you might ask? Not necessary. It can be a comfort when there's heavy rain to set or retrieve from the warmth of the cabin. For us, it is to lift the weight of the anchor (plus attendant mud) and take the stress off a weak human back -- (our son required it for us!)

[mikeporterinmd]

Our boat originally had an all chain rode. If we anchored in 50' of water,
it would be a lot of work to haul that in by hand.

Since all chain isn't needed in the Chesapeake, and since most of the
chain rusted anyway, I removed most of it. When I was pulling it up through the pipe, it actually shot rust pieces all over the V-berth.
Fortunately, the cushions are Sunbrella and the rust didn't stain it.

Wonder why they rigged the boat with 150' of chain? Anyone boating
on the Chesapeake with all chain? Is all chain really needed anywhere
else?

Of course, the first 10-20' should be chain, depending on your exact
preferences...

Mike

[starcrafttom]

because they have cahin to sell, and not very good chain if it rusted that bad. several dealers have told owners that they need chain" to keep the bow down" what a load of "$#" Any boat with a out board can tilt the motor up or down to get the bow angle right or install trim tabs. They just want to sell chain..

[mikeporterinmd]

[thataway]

I don't know if JennyKatz's windlass was a factory installation or not. I have a factory 700, and a 50 amp breaker on the TC 255--the wire looks to be #10--which is way under sized. Since it is in the net, it is hard to determine the size. One of my projects will be to replace or at least parallel the wire, since the run is about 27 feet in the TC 255.

I have owned windlasses up to 3500 lb pull- (200 amps at 24 volts). Even with that size windlass, I do not pull the boat to the anchor, or use the windlass to break the anchor out. There have been times I have had to pull a heavy load (like hooking into a battleship chain)--but I did that in short bursts, so that the motor would not heat up.

Power the boat to the anchor, use the windlass to take up the slack in rope/chain. Break the anchor out with the boat. Use the windlass to bring the anchor to the pulpit and aboard.

[tpbrady]

Bill,

I just about always have someone on the bow when launching and recovering the anchor. The main function of the windlass is to get all the rope and chain down that small hole in the bow with a minimum of misery so I have someplace to carry extra gas.