Solar Vents, Sunsei vs Nicro vs Nicro Combo

[John S]

I've spent this evening reading thru the archives for hours on ventilation issues.

We get so........much condensation in the cabin that we actually sop it up with a sponge in the morning. Condensation dribbles down all the windows and puddles on me while I'm sleeping at night.

I read about the spray on insulation, interesting stuff, but by the time it warms up enough to apply it I want to be playing on the boat. I read about some people gluing carpet to the walls, but that sounds like a wet mildewing mess to me. or not:?: It's so bad we even bought a 110V dehumidfier to run in the boat while it's sitting in the driveway to try and dry it up.

I'm sure I want to install some kind of ventilation fan. Looking for anyones latest thoughts on the different options available. Any other ideas for battling my condensation issues would also be appreciated.

The Nicro comes in the solar only option as a snap in or screw in installation. The Nicro solar/12V combo comes as a snap in only. I have no idea what this snap-in installation is. I hope someone can educate me. My plans have been to install this in the front hatch, as we will be putting a dinghy on the roof. Sure appreciate any thoughts; it is often cloudy where we boat.

Thanks,
John

I'm looking at the Nicro Solar Vent



or the Nicro Solar/12V combo



or the Sunsei Solar Vent

[Byrdman]

WOW John...sounds like you do have a lot of moisture... Your temps for sure remain much lower than ours, and I too noticed a lot more moisture when it out on the TomCat when it was at about 15 degrees. Just like an ol beer bottle, the warmer side is going to make water. I found I had to open the windows a bit more the colder it got as to allow for a bit more air flow "thru" the boat, that did not have my breathing moisture added to it. It did work the heater a bit harder, but was drier at the same time. The vents look like a good idea too and I was on a Rosborough boat of Tom and Marge's (use to own Pelican that my Brother Mike now has)...and they had a neat vent system on their boat that always allows air flow, but no water.. I can not recall the name of it and will attempt to get with Tom and find out, but I think it is standard equipment on a Rosborough 246 boat. Others more familar with those boats might know the name of the vent. I liked it. I also found it better to keep a big ol box fan moving air around inside the boat as much as possible, which also really helped reduce the front slanted windows/windshield of the TC24 from fogging when under way. Good luck with your vent search.
Byrdman

[Pat Anderson]

We had a Nicro solar vent - our experience was that even starting with a fully charged battery, there is not enough sun here to maintain the charge to keep it running...might work great in California, Florida or Texas though (Arizona, Colorado, etc.) - too many cloudy gray days, no she go...I think you would be better off with the solar / 12 volt combo.

[John S]

[Jeff Brigner]

Pre cook your pasta and then microwave it on the boat. My ceramic heater sure seams to help keep us dry.

[John S]

Jeff,

Well that would work, but..........we don't have a microwave on board. When we are out we are never on shore power and currently we don't have a gasoline generator with us. This hasn't been a problem so far, but the microwave would sure pull the batteries down quick.

Tell me more about ceramic heaters.
I noticed you're keeping your boat warm and dry in the Gulf of Mexico instead of the Gulf of Alaska, our enviroment is quite challenging. One place we boat, Prince William Sound, is a rainforest, hence it is raining all the time.

Thanks for the idea, maybe we will squeeze in the microwave some day.

[journey on]

OK, I just ordered the Nicro solar powered vent for the CD25 head. Here's my rationale:
1. I want to be able to pull it out, so I have a smooth cabin top either when I've got the boat covered at home, or when I want to store something on top. That limits me to the Nicro solar only. The Sunsi doesn't pop out and the Nicro combo get plumbed into DC (could get a connector.)
2. I hate a black vent but they're on sale at Defender. For $15 off, I guess I don't hate it that much.
3. Nicro has a smaller solar vent, which is cheaper, but attaches directly to the cabin top (free comment.)

Boris

[John S]

Boris,

Is there a cover that you can put in place of the vent, for when you want to take it out?
It sounds like you are you planning on installing it in the roof, any reason there instead of the forward hatch?

John

[Sea Wolf]

John S-

The little fans, both solar and 12v DC, are nice and will help with moisture in moderate moisture situations or during storage, but to rid your boat of serious breathing moisture, or especially of moisture coming in on wet jackets during rain periods, you're going to have to take some more drastic steps to remove the water vapor. After all, you're talking Alaska, not the tropics!

1. When the boat is moving, the front window panels need two or three 12 v fans directed on them to evaporate condensation. To be effective, the air must circulated be dry enough to cause the evaporation of the condensed moisture. This can require cabin heat in more demanding circumstances.

2. You really have to have two things to dry out the cabin in severe moisture situations. One is a heat source to vaporize the water, and the other is an evacuation system to blow out the moisture laden air.

The heat source can be your Wallas stove, a propane or similar stove, or an electric heater.

Most stoves, which use air from the cabin for combustion and are also externally vented, will both supply the heat to evaporate cabin moisture and also then continuously pipe that moisture out through the exhaust as the internal air is used for combustion.

Often this dual function is enough to evaporate the moisture and remove it from the cabin. However, if you find the heat required from the stove is too much to tolerate, you may have to crack a window or use some form of exhaust fan to limit heat retention in the cabin. A roof vent, either powered or passive, works well here.

It's also worthy to note that some stoves, like the Dickinson Propane Fireplace, draw combusion air in from outside and vent exhaust externally, so they will not remove the moisture like stoves that use cabin air for combustion, and therefore must have a window open or fan venting to assist the removal of moisture from the cabin.

Electric heaters, either powered by shore power or by a generator, likewise heat the cabin air without exhausting it, and venting is again required.

Another aspect of this is that cooking stoves that vent combustion air into the cabin, such as propane burners and alcohol stoves (Origo, for instance), dump a great deal of combustion created moisture directly into the cabin air and require a serious boost in cabin venting during use to control moisture buildup.

While we're at it, we'll also remind everyone that cabin heaters that are not vented externally, like the catalytic Mr. Buddy Heater, are difficult to use in very cold climates because of the combustion moisture they create.

Specifically, they must be used with significant ventilation due to their

1. moisture creation,
2. oxygen depletion, and
3. possibility for carbon monoxide poisioning when used in closed enviornments.

Exactly how much air heating, circulation, and exhausting are required to adequately ventilate your cabin will depend on your climate, your specific boating uses, and other factors.

I'm of the opinion that if you have a good heating, air circulating, and exhaust system that is very adaptable and flexible, it will allow you to enjoy your boat a great deal more in any weather.

Having one or two 12v fans that can be moved around the cabin to distribute the air circulation will provide a lot of adaptability. I have two mounted on Stanley spring clamps that clip to many different places on board.

Hope this helps!

Joe.

[Sea Wolf]

John S-

Just another note to your specific question about ceramic heaters.

Any electric heater uses the flow of electricity through some resistance, such as a wire or ceramic element, to produce heat as electrons are forced through the heating element by the voltage in the circuit. Energy is changed from electical energy to heat energy which is dissipated into the air.

The simplest method is to use a wire of considerable resistance, often primarily iron in composition, to create heat and to distribute it, usually in conjunction with a fan motor, though there are some radiant heaters without fans.

More recently, ceramic heating elements have become available where the electricity passes through a ventilated ceramic matrix which warms the air, usually again with a fan for distribution.

The chief advantage of the ceramic element is that the heating element itself can be at a lower temperature than a hot wire, and is much less likely to produce sparks in a heater element failure. This is important in a boating enviornment where flamable gas vapors, such as gasoline or propane, might be present, and is the chief advantage of ceramic heaters.

If anyone is unaware of it, the major difference between home, auto, and marine parts for appliances, motors, engines, and other electrical units such as battery chargers, is that marine specific equipment is sealed off in such a way to prevent any electical sparking from being able to ignite gas vapors.

This is of critical importance in equipment used in the bilge of an inboard gasoline powered motorboat, but of lesser importance for kitchen appliances used only occasionally in any boat's galley.

With this in mind, we can understand why a ceramic cabin heater is a safer appliance than one with an exposed hot wire heating element!

And it's not just gas vapors that can create a problem.

An overturned heater of any type can be a problem ona carpeted floor or around clothes or other flamable objects.

For this reason, modern electric heaters have gravity controlled switches in them which will interrupt the power flow in the event of a turnover. Many of the older ones did not have this feature, so I'd recommend you turn yours over sideways as a test to be sure that it will shut itself off. I'd also check those used at home.

I also think most modern heaters have a thermal limiting circuit breaker in them that will shut them off if a certain temperature is exceeded. This is another function to check out in your heaters to be sure it's there and ready to function.

Lastly, I prefer electric heaters for boats that are "flatish" in design rather than tall, narrow ones, simply because they are much less likely to be turned over accidently, especially in a boat. Be sure to place the heater in a protected area away from traffic and flamables as well. Commnon sense goes a long way in preventing senseless tradgedy.

P.S.: It kind of goes without saying, but I would again remind everyone that any 120 VAC electric heater in a boat be wired through a system that includes a 15 amp circuit breaker and a GFI protected receptacle.

Joe.

[Pat Anderson]

Correct. Actually, I didn't remove it - I was going to - but when the guys who returned my boat from Ketchikan to Blaine got back, I discovered they had evidently knocked the vent cap off somewhere along the way and lost it. But I was going to remove it, the battery wouldn't stay charged, the vent cap wouldn't stay put (had Mickey Mouse tabs to hold it in place), and it was just generally unsatisfactory for us. We now have a vent with a stainless cap plus a 12 volt fan.

[Byrdman]

John S: Looks like you need a good size inverter on your boat, particuarly with your area, and pasta dishes. Same deal with me when I love to have a nice shrimp boil on board. I HAD TO HAVE the 20" box fan running most of the time on the boat. I liked it warm inside. Fixed a "hook-like" gizmo on/next to my fire ext mounted on the back wall as to hang the wet jackets aft, as to keep them away from the slanted windows. I also had the roto-type DC fans mounted on the top, outside corners of the two outside windshield windows....but they simply do not move enough air, particuarly during the shrimp boiling times, and....the hot shrimp on the plates once boiled still set off more steam....closer to the front windows. We can not have our cake and eat it too.... Everything is a compramise. But, a bunch of air moving with the low speed of the box fan (moved about the boat for differant needs) really made the entire boat more enjoyable to include warming the air near the floor, and keeping moisture down on the windshield. I kept the aft wall windows cracked about 1/2-1" as well as both forward side windows, and the front hatch too. In your continues colder climates, you might just need to "help" the wallas along a bit with an additional heat source..... Just review Joe's "making heat on a boat" review above, and pick your additional heat source. You might find that a little 2,000 Honda or similar gen set may provide for some nice comforts that you seem to be chasing....and, if all else fails, I found the sqeegy gizmo for drying cars that is way flexible, made out in CA somewhere I think, when combined with a nice rag, did well for removing the moisture quickly if the fans got behind, or, as Joe stated....the moist air won over the dry air available.

Byrdman

[hughpenk]

The 20" box fan is cumbersome on a 16. Ryobie makes a 18 volt cordless fan about 12". The same battery as the drill snaps in and will last more than a day before recharge. It is several times bigger than the usual size 3" fans on a boat and is quiet.

[journey on]

[John S]

Thank you for all the wonderful thoughts and knowledge. Joe especially for spending so much time explaining the subject and suggested solutions.

Pat, thanks for detailing your Nicro problems/concerns. I will almost definitely not go with solar only. Now you do have me concerned with the Nicro snap-in installation. Did you replace with a Nicro 12 Volt or a competitor's that stays in the hole better???

We are already running the clip on fans, in fact we burned up one last summer, they are noisy and annoying, but they work. Anyone have a favorite, reliable brand in these??? A link maybe???

We started carrying the 20" box fan late last summer, but man did that thing get in the way, we were only using it while underpower to conserve batteries.

It sounds like running the Wallas more would help, Joe pointed out the fact that not only is it heating, but it is exhausting too and obviously we need all the exhaust we can get.

We have a portable propane camp stove, it would probably help if I boiled my pasta and shrimp out back in the cockpit over the top of the fish box.

On board portable heaters make me a little nervous and although it's easy to say just run it somewhere out of the way. We haven't found an out of the way place on our TC24 for heaters. We have a really hard time keeping the temperature up when it is dark, raining and chilly at night. We have brought our Mr. Buddy Heater to supplement the Wallas, but then we've triggered the O2 sensor on it and caused it to shut down, so not a great solution. Our cabin often sits around 50 to 55 degrees at night. We usually crack a back window about an inch during the night.

We've been scared to go to sleep with the Wallas running after we experienced a couple of those exhaust backing up scenarios that people have described fairly regularly on here. (We haven't had one lately and we've completely replumbed the exhaust)

I did get the CO Experts CO detector for Christmas (as recommended on this forum) So maybe I'll feel more comfortable sleeping with the Wallas going, although then I'll worry about waking with dead batteries.

It sounds like a generator is in our near future. Does it have to be the EU2000 instead of the 1000???

Thanks for the great discussion.

John