Help on 22 Cruiser Motor Selection

[Pat Anderson]

Yes, I was going to say what Dave says here. Keep motors straight ahead. One in forward and one in reverse. Just a little gas, same rmps on each - see what happens. The boat turns around in a circle on the spot, or very nearly. I am not cool or calm enough to make this capability useful while docking with the wind howling, or even in a crowded marina on a calm day, but what the hey, it is a fact. Not that this would necessarily be the deciding factor, but you can't do this with a single.

[Work Release]

Thanks for the input guys,
Well there seems to be pros and cons about twins on the 22 cruiser. I have been in two situations up B.C. way with other boats when I wished I had more than just a kicker to get myself back to the dock. Both times a good wind and strong tide kept myself at a stand still, (using a 9.9 kicker). Luckly, some nice guys came along and gave me a tow, pretty embarrassing thou. I do a lot more fishing than cruising, but having twins gives me more security when out on the highseas by myself. I have had swim steps on my last two boats and really like them for boarding and sticking a extra cooler on, but am willing to give it up and have a stowaway type step. Has anyone out there have or knows someone that has the twin 50's?, and what they think of this setup. In my mind, I can't help but think the 20 extra Horsepower over the twin 40's wouldn't come in handy when loaded up on a long trip.
Thanks again for the input, Jim

[Sawdust]

Jim,

You might be able to get El or Bill to contribute on this one. They have thousands of miles on a pair of 40s, always heavy. As I recall, the 40 actually has more torque in the normal operating range, and the 50 adds its HP from about 4500 on up. I've run both engines quite a bit as singles -- difficult to tell which one you are running. The same is true with the 75 and 90. I fish often with both the 75 and 90 -- IMO the 75 is better on the 22CD. Your point about coming back on a 9.9 is a good one, and the 40 would be much better for that. I'm a bit surprised that the 9.9 couldn't get you to hull speed though. I've come from Uclulet BC to Deception Pass on a single 9.9 (26+ hours) when the outdrive quit. 26 ft. heavy boat. Long trip, and even a 15 would have been a help.

Dusty

[Chuck S]

Skipper --

No one has yet documented the torque of eigher the 40 or 50 at any rpm other than the peak listed by Honda in their ads. Torque is normally a very flat curve on a graph. Horse power is a calculation based on torque and rpm -- more rpm you're gonna get more horsepower. Torque is what counts. Horse power is math.

All we know is the 40's peak torque is 43.8 ft lb at 3500 rpm and the 50 is 47.1 at 4500. No one will tell us what the 50's torque is at 3500 rpm. Seems a simple question. With the typical flat torque curve I'd expect it to be at least 43.8, but who really knows?

Not even Honda is willing to give this information.

-- Chuck

[Sawdust]

Sure interesting, Chuck -

I'm surprised they don't make that stuff available. I recently studied the curves on the new 135/150. A curve to kill for, and the two engines are almost exactly the same until about 4,500 -- and the HP curve is pure flat up to about 160 HP at 6,000. That's going to be a sweet, sweet engine. Pretty hi-tech for an old guy, but I ran it on a 21 Arima and it's a big jump to the future.

Dusty

[Les Lampman]

Hey all,

Well here goes...since y'all are bantering my name around! So for Work Release and Others...

I've been aboard I don't how many CD22's, I know lots of folks that have them and I've rigged so many I've lost count. I've yet to meet an owner with a 4-stroke on the transom (of any make or model) that didn't just love his/her boat. It's darn near impossible to make a bad choice anywhere in the 75 to 100 hp range in any combination.

There's no reason to go to the Honda BF50's (over the 40's) unless you want them. They don't do much for the boat except add about 3 knots to the top end; a speed that's rarely used on most CD22's. On the other hand, there's no reason not to get the BF50's if they're your desire; there's no particular downside to them other than the extra loot. Put what makes you smile back there...after all it's a pleasure boat!

My personal preference is for the 40's; I like saving the extra money and I feel their performance is more closely matched to the CD22's characteristics. For instance, a very common cruise speed is in the upper teens; that puts the twins just at or under 4,000 rpm. The BF40 develops its peak torque at 3500 rpm; the BF50 at 4500 rpm. If we're at 4000 rpm pushing up the backside of a wave, as the engine rpm drops (from the additional load), on the BF40's the rpm is dropping toward peak torque and away from peak torque on the BF50's. In essence you're a bit on the 'backside' of the power band on the 50's and have to 'catch up'; the BF40's are ready to pull at that rpm.

NOTE: this is subtle stuff; for me it's a matter of optimizing the performance of the boat for the owner and the boat's intended use. So, if the boat's intended use is primarily light loads and higher speeds (maybe it lives on a lake) I'd happily recommend the 50's. It's also about not recommending a more expensive solution just for the heck of it; if you want it go for it. Most folks would never know the difference between running the twin 40's versus the twin 50's until they have lots of hours with each and even then I doubt that the comments would be negative either way. My philosophy is why pay for more then you need...unless you want it; then it makes perfect sense to go with the bigger engines. Nothing's worse than wishing you had made a different choice every time you go out in the boat.

I particularly like the choices in the Suzuki/Johnson line up at the moment and I'm a confirmed Honda lover! The advantages for the CD22 are that they have much better alternators than the Honda's (significantly; which is really nice when you're charging batteries after running lights, the Wallas, inverters, the stereo, etc) and they have EFI (I've not had too much trouble with Honda carbs but there's no denying it's awfully nice to just turn the key and start). A pair of Suzuki 40/50's (which I understand the factory now has) would be a good choice but I particularly like the 90 hp choice as it's a 1950cc engine (350cc more than the Honda 90...more torque and load moving capacity) and has a BIG alternator.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a Yamaha either but the factory doesn't have them. And in the case of the F75/90 they're pretty much the same as the Honda BF75/90...4-cylinder, 4-carb, etc.

And yes, having twins on the CD22 does offer more maneuverability than a single; the question is how much more do you need than the single offers? This is a tough question. I've never been in a situation with a single that having twins would make significantly better. More convenient at times yes; but less convenient at others. I certainly wouldn't make the choice solely based on maneuverability. Sometimes KISS is good.

There isn't enough torque from the two small BF40/50 props to amount to anything when it comes to handling the boat with twins. If you absolutely nail the throttles with twins it still will not induce a torque reaction...it just ain't there. Counter-rotation just isn't necessary. A normal cruise prop going in the forward direction is more efficient than the same prop in reverse; this has more effect than torque steer when maneuvering the twins. With the wheel centered the boat will turn more to the forward direction and away from the motor in forward gear with the throttles at idle; it takes just a bit of throttle on the reversed engine to get a centered spin.

This is a bit of a non-issue since any wind will affect the CD22 a lot more than the props do as it slides quite easily.

Ok, as much as I'd like to finish this novel I've got to go to work (groan!). Later.

[Jon - CLou]

There's no doubt about it, Les is the Dr. Phil of outboard motors and boats.
It's always nice to read your posts, you have a really neat gift on how you explain things.
Jon

[Work Release]

Thanks everyone that had input on this subject, and thanks to Les, very informative stuff from a expert.
Sounds like it I will be satisfied with either choice, but I believe I will at least stay with the Honda brand. Honda has a proven track record and I have haven't talked to a dissatisfied owner. I don't want to be a tester for a new improved brand name, Ill wait until they have a tract record. I have finally setup a test ride on a 22 cruiser with twin 40's and will make a discission, will announce the outcome.
Jim

[Coastie Dory]

Good evening everyone,

I just wanted to add one very important tidbit to Les' great essay. The alternator on an EFI engine is larger because you have to run one or more fuel pumps, injectors, ignition, and microprocessor. The remaining energy is there for battery charging and whatever toys we want to add to the boat. Another aspect is what is the charging curve related to engine rpm. Mercury recently dropped the output of some of their charging systems to add significantly to the idle and low speed output. Most midrange outboards only put out a couple of amps at idle.

40 amps is the largest under flywheel alternator I have seen. OMC used one for years on their V6 engines. They got hot and I have replaced a good many of them. Mercury went with a 40 amp system on their V6s that used two 20 amp stators and regulators in parallel making a redundant system. Merc started using a belt driven 60 amp alternator on the 3.0 EFI and later on all Optimax product.

Beware of sales hype when talking to salesmen or reading motor brochures. A 20 amp (recently reduced to 18 amp) alternator on a 40 Merc EFI sounds impressive. About half of that output is already spoken for!

Best wishes, Randy.

[Chuck S]

I still have trouble with this statement

[Sea Wolf]

From Les Lampman- Feb. 26, 2004


Hello Chris and Janet,

Since I'm usually the one telling people that either setup (single or twins) makes a wonderful boat and to just install what 'speaks' to you I'll play devil's advocate today and let you develop the arguments.

I suggest if you're really on the fence; go with a single main engine and a kicker motor. Why?

1) In the long run simpler is always better and less expensive.
2) It's less expensive up front to go that way; rigging for the twin engine setup is much more expensive with two of all the gauges, the key switches, the remote controller, the control cables, the props, the tiebar, etc. With a single/kicker there's much less complexitiy since the kicker doesn't get all that rigging paraphenalia. With the single main you have a simpler dash layout and just one lever to mess with when manuevering.
3) Reliability is a non-issue; you're as likely to see a broken down four-stroke motor (of any make) as you are a new car. Usually it's a flat tire that puts a new car on the side of the road; for us it's a whacked prop.
4) If you're going to hit something (and that's the reason most boats get stopped) you're better off with a single and kicker; with twins on 24" centers the likelihood is that if you hit one prop you'll hit both; in fact, that close together, one twin usually throws the debris into the other. With a single/kicker the main engine's prop may get whacked but the kicker is safe and sound tipped out of the water.
5) With a single/kicker you can have a swim step and ladder on the transom. Very nice for getting in and out of dinghies, getting out of the water if you find yourself there by mistake (or on purpose if you dive), very nice for changing the prop on the main engine if you need to.
6) If you or anybody that's going to be routinely aboad is 'pitch sensitive' (in a mucical sense) twins are going to drive them nuts unless you keep them synchronized. I've come close to grabbing the throttle my self (with someone else at the helm) on a few boats when the 'thrum' of unsynched motors litterally had me clenching my teeth.
7) There's a lot of controls to mess with on the twin setup...two key switches, two trim switches, two control levers, two trim tab rockers; getting the boat trimmed out takes more effort that a single engine does.
8 ) Big engines last longer than little engines. That is, there is higher potential to put more hours on a 75/90 than there is to put hours on a 40/50. I'd be the first to admit that doesn't usually come into play for most of us but if you get a lot of hours on your engines the Honda BF75 will outlast the BF40's by about 50%.
9) The electrical system on the twins is more complex and takes more operator intervention. The alternators on the twins can not be paralleled or you run the risk of 'backfeeding' into one of them and literally burning the charging coils. That means knowing what you're doing with the battery switch. This is much easier with a single engine. The single can charge a single battery better then the twins can charge two batteries (since their output can't be combined).
10) If you're in the San Juans and you have an anchor, a VHF, and a Vessel Assist card you're good to go if you're really in for a bad time. The image of fighting your way home on an 8-hp kicker is a bit overwrought. The 8-hp kicker will push the CD22 along at hull speed (about 5 knots) and you'll be traveling just like every sailboat out there. Yeah it's slower than you usually go...what's you point? My dad brought a heavy 26' power boat back from Barkley Sound (on the west coast of Vancouver Island) to Whidbey Island on a Honda BF100 (which is the BF8; the old motor was rated for horsepower at the flywheel)...best mileage he ever got with that boat for sure! And that boat easily wieghed twice what a CD22 does.

When you're selecting options plan for the future. For instance, we don't deliver CD22's without hydraulic steering. I know that the maintenenace on the hydraulic steering is significantly less and easier than cable steering. With cable steering I will see you in a few years to replace the steering cable and probably sooner to free it up after it sits over a winter. If you use your boat a lot you're probably going to get interested in an autopilot; the prices have plummeted and they're a handy item to have aboard (the seagoing equivalent of cruise control!). Adding that to a boat with hydraulic steering is relatively easy and a much better system than is available with mechanical steering. Steering effort is not the big thing; the mechanical steering isn't so bad. I have noticed though that more of the crew volunteers to steer with hydarulic steering versus mechanical (it is nicer); at least until the autopilot gets installed.

Get the trim tabs...they make a world of difference.

Get the electric wipers on both windows; otherwise you look like you're filming an exercise video...up, down, up, down...you can't reach the port wiper from the helm seat. And since most folks mount thier main nav screen in front of the helm (usually something like a Garmin 188C, a Raymarine RL70CRC, or a Furno 1722) it sometimes isn't easy to reach the starboard manual wiper either.

If you want the cat's meow get the Camper Canvas. It's like getting suite at the hotel instead of just a room. All of a suden you have a protected space to come in out of the rain or wind (or both) and get the wet gear off before going into the nice dry cabin. You'll have more room to store stuff with weather protection in the cockpit (who doesn't need more space?) and you'll have a place at night for the portable head to live (and get used). Besides that, at a C-Dory get together the boats with camper canvas are the most popular! Gives you a nice lounge space.

I'm out of time...unless this 'flips the coin' for you I can do the next message with all the reasons I think you should get twins!!!
_________________
Boat Les...on Whidbey

[rascal]

hi all
i am running twins and they offer a more stable platform in a chop or steep swells and will get you back easier if you are caught out in a bad blow,than a single and a small kicker. i love the twins as a safety feature on lake Superior which is known to make its own weather on occasion no matter what the weather radio says...........folks that run singles have very good reasons for their choices too! so nobody is wrong! a person just needs to determine their individual needs and then rig her out.
ras

[Les Lampman]

[Sea Wolf]

Here's Les Lampman's second installement on the twins vs. single motor with kicker discussion:

It's me again.

I'm not sure I have quite as much time this morning to type as much as I did on the Single Engine Cause! Aren't you glad!

First, to Scotty who asked about the Anchor Deck Pipe and windlass. You are correct; you do not need to order the Anchor Deck Pipe option if you're installing the windlass. Dave's answer threw me a little but I think he was saying that if you already have a boat with the Anchor Deck Pipe you can still add a windlass.

So why in the world would you want twins?

1) The number one reason has to be the "cool" factor; hardly anything looks better that a pair of engines hanging on the stern. Too many folks discount this as being 'silly' and try and justify it on a 'technical' basis; but if looks don't count what attracted you to the C-Dory? Or your car? Or whatever; you get the idea.

2) IF you're going to lose an engine and IF you're a long way from help (and some C-Dory's do go to some very remote areas) being able to get to help at a higher speed (say 8 knots rather than 5) while sitting at the helm and operating the boat as you usually do would be nice (you have visibility, you have your instrumentation and electronics, you're warm, and you have steering and shift controls at hand). So, my general rule is that the need for twins (from a backup standpoint) is proportional to the distance from help. Losing a main engine is still not a high probability BUT it can happen and the farther out in never-never land you are the more comforting it would be to have that backup.

Keep in mind however, that the two main reasons for not having motive power are that you hit something (and with twins very likely damaged both props) or you have a fuel contamination problem (that will most likely affect both engines since installing a truly redundant fuel system on a CD22 is a bit of a space challenge and overkill for most). If you're travelling afar you should be prepared to change props and filters on your own (and a small reserve of quality fuel wouldn't be bad in truly out-of-the-way places).

3) Twins make you 'feel' good...and don't pooh-pooh this either. Happiness is being comfortable and you're not comfortable if you're scared or worried. So if having twins on the back raises the comfort level and your sense of security that's a darn good reason to have them; sure makes boating a lot more fun.

The second side to this feel thing is from a 'smile factor' standpoint. If having twins on the stern makes you smile every time you see the boat then you did the right thing. These are pleasure boats; they're supposed to make you smile. Nothing's worse than buying a new 'thing' and then wishing you had made a different choice. This usually happens because you thought too much and over-analyzed the darn thing (this is really a 'guy' problem). Listen to your heart, to heck with the technical details; all these various engine configurations work super well...that's why there are so many happy CD22 owners.

4) You're a gunkholer (I am). If you like to sneak into tiny little places and go where none dared go before, or you like to cruise marinas and stick your nose down each float then you'll appreciate two things about the twins....1) you can tilt one engine up out of the water (usually the port because of the steering linkage) and 'tip-toe' in with the other (even with that one trimmed up a bit). If you do smack something then you've just got one prop to deal with. You can do this with a single and kicker but you don't get to sit at the helm with full control and the sounder right in front of you since you're in the cockpit running the kicker; which also means you're in the back of the boat where you can't see as well and 2) you can literally turn the boat in it's own length. This is really nice when you get into a dead-end in a marina and need to head the other direction, or when the wind is blowing and you want to dock. To really get the most from your twins (from a handling standpoint) you have to practice; if you don't you might find that you'll get yourself into more trouble trying to use both engines (other than in unison) than if you left one engine in neutral and just used one for maneuvering.

5) If you're doing the Power Squadron or Coast Guard Reserve thing (or just good Samaritan) and have a disabled boat along side you'll appreciate the ability to use differential power with the twins.

6) Profile and visibility; the twins are not as tall as the single engine so when you look back over the stern you don't see one tall motor sticking up in the center. Rather you're looking over the top of two shorter motors (better for sunset viewing from the cockpit). And it's back to the 'looks' thing again; some folks just prefer the lower profile of the twins when viewing the boat from the side (or any angle for that matter).

7) For fishing you can just troll on one of the twin engines; you don't have to worry about steering linkage, etc to the kicker motor; so you can sit at the helm where you have your depth sounder and full steering, speed and shift control. One twin running will slow down pretty darn well. You can troll on the main single but it's sometimes hard to get the speed down. The advantage of running from the helm can also be a disadvantage in that you must run from the helm since that's where the steering and controls are. This can be mitigated to some degree by having an autopilot with a remote in the cockpit; that's a very nice setup! And helps with cruising aspects as well. This is a very subjective area...it really depends a lot on how you fish. Or even if you fish.

8 ) The twins are slightly more efficient in the low and mid-range speeds since you have two props that constitute more blade area in the water than the single larger prop and you get better response. For cruisers with heavy loads this is a good thing. The flip side is you'll give it up at higher speeds where the extra drag of the twins comes into play.

I've probably missed a couple things I'm sure. In the final analysis what I find is that I can find more technical reasons for choosing a single and a kicker motor; I find more emotional reasons for choosing twins. This coincides greatly with what I've seen customers ultimately choose. Pure cruisers and those going to remote places tend to choose the twins; fisherman and local boaters tend to favor the single. These are, of course, just generalities and I personally know of several 'exceptions'; new boaters (in general) tend to gravitate to the twin configuration since their experience level and therefore their comfort level is not very high. [Unless you're an engineering type or technical type; in which case you're going to analyze the heck out of the thing anyway!]
_________________
Boat Les...on Whidbey

[Chuck S]

Les --

Really all I'd like to see is the 40's and 50's torque at 3500 rpm thru 4500 rpm. In this range the 40's curve must have a downward slope (or it wouldn't peak at 3500 rpm) and the 50s must have an upward slope. Torque curves are normally fairly flat. Horsepower, of course, is merely a mathematical formula derived from torque and rpm, so it favors rpm on high revving engines like these.

Angle of slope would, of course, be interesting as would the complete graph of both engines.

I wrote Honda Marine about this and was told to contact my dealer

-- Chuck