C Ranger 21 EC

kimshack · Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:36 am Post subject: C Ranger 21 EC

Does anyone own a C Ranger 21 EC? I have been having some ongoing issues since I purchased the boat earlier this year. Primarily the performance. It is supposed to do 13mph at 3600 rpms, or 10mph at 3000 rpms, but I am getting only 10mph at 3600rpms. I've been going back and forth with C-Ranger then finally Jeff Messmer since the purchase back May. To make a long story short, there going to put in a 40HP into my boat at an additional cost. Not to happy about it, but I'm also tired of being stressed out about it as well. They committed to getting the work started on Dec 1st, but apparently, there has been some delays due to getting the right gear / transmission. They are now looking at getting to it by mid-december. I wanted to see if there are others who have the Ranger 21 and who would like to share ideas about the boat.

Thanks
Nam

SEA3PO · Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject:

It's going to take all of that 40hp to get you up to 13..... and I don't think your gonna like it much.... what will happen is the bow will rise and the stern will dig in....and she will do it...but with alot of labor...

I have a 22' tug much like the Ranger.. it originally came with a 16hp two cylinder Yanmar.... I repowered with a three cylinder 30hp Yanmar.. but I did not gain any more speed.... I needed power, and it worked out fine for me....but above 10 it just digs in.... you will be pushing a ton of water..they just don't go fast.... and it will really be working.... relax...go back to 8 or 9 and enjoy the ride.... the 16 ho diesel easily pushed the boat up to 10...but never over 10....

I have been playing with putting wings on the rudder.... so when power is applied to the rudder it causes lift.... and hopefully slows down some of that stern squat.

Pay close attention to the weight of your repower... it may offset any hp gain and even make the tug handle strange...you will need a different prop and maybe a new shaft...

Joel
SEA3PO
KEA (the tug)

kimshack · Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject:

Thanks Sea3PO. During one of my conversations with John Livingston back in July and August when we were trying to determine why it was not performing at the performance levels of 13mph, he stated that they had previously put in a 40HP in a test boat when they were trying to determine what HP to put in the Ranger 21. He stated that it was able to get up to 16-17mph. Jeff and John, both stated that it would need a new prop, a motor, new box cushion, and all of the various things that would need to be changed out to accomadate the bigger engine which was included in the additional cost. To be quite honest I'm ready to be done with this as going back and forth for many months with C-Ranger has not been very fun. Now with what you said, I am more concerned. I am hoping that both Jeff and John will follow through on their committment and put these issues to rest for me.

Byrdman · Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:34 pm Post subject:

There are folks who can do math and formulas on this site much better than me. I would also like to know if the 16-17...MPH (land speed) was a top speed, and if so, what would a nice 3,000 RPM cruise speed end up being? This hull is never going to be a fast hull, it simply is not made for that. This is a ECO hull..... just go enjoy the environment, and stick a nice auto pilot on there.

Now.. getting a bit out of bounds here....but, on one of the lock and dam cruises in Seattle.... we went by a sail/motor boat that appeared to have some type of "wings" if you will just at the waterline... as to add lift and beam to the aft section of the hull??? Crazy? Maybe... Does it work??? I don't know...but worth pondering a bit. I do know that the ride in the aft section of the new CR-21EC was not the dryest ride I had experienced, particuarly in the aft bench seat.. These "wing-deals"... might also help with the spray pattern....maybe.

It is one cool slow moving boat for sure. I feel sure the Livingston's will be good for their commitments...and quality does take time. But, while they were waiting on the new parts.... I'd be traveling about the area...just as she is.

You might want to hit up ol C-Salt, "Dusty" for some input. I think he has a bit of time behind the helm of one of these neat boats.

Now, would it not be great to see the Livingstons/C-Dory put together a CR-25 EC version of the CR-21-EC.... Not a bunch of stuff...just a blown up version of the current CR-21-EC, supersized to the current hull of the CD25T...with those fancy parking assisters/thrusters... Mr. Green

Now...that would be wide enough for me and someone else my size to ride comfortably all day/week/month long, and a long enough cockpit area for "a boat load" of family and friends... What a vessel that would be.

I mentioned it to the Sr. Livingston at the show last year...and got a big ol grin... but...he was for sure focused in attempting to get the CR-25 T cruiser up and out of the factory. I loved the boat at the show without the top... It truly made for a great visual of the boat...with a bunch of folks standing and pointing to and from about their ideas/favorite parts.

These tugs have a LOT of potential for sure. If they come up with one of the Super Sized CR-25-EC 's like the current 22.... I might just have to get over a few more inches of draft... There is just something about the humm of a diesel and a tug boat... I have watched them all my life on the Cumberland River...and they are calling me.

Byrdman....waiting for the Seattle 07 boat show surprises... Mr. Green

Byrdman

thataway · Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:56 pm Post subject:

I may sound like a broken record--but I do believe that everyone who buys one of these tug trawlers (or a C Dory for all that matters)--should have a copy of David Gerr's "The Nature of Boats". ( Another excellent book is Bebee/Lieshman's Voyaging under Power). Both of these books discuss the concept and limitations of the displacement/semidisplacement hulls. The same hull as the C Ranger 21 tug trawler has been around for quite some time. I have corresponded with folks who have 10 hp to 20 hp in them--and they do fine with that HP. With enough HP I am sure that you can get that boat to plane--I have a friend who had a very similar boat--but had a slightly rounder bilge with a 120 Ford Lehman--and it got up to about 20 knots but was very wet in the cockpit.

The 10 mph is a difficult speed for any boat of that size/type. It is way beyond the 1.34 x the sq root of the length waterline, which is 6 knots.
That is the easily driven speed of this hull. Beyond this speed you are looking at a semidisplacement/planing speed. The 10 mph/13 mph are well into the semidisplacement speeds of 2 x sq root LWL.

I certainly think that the C Ranger/C Dory people will put the engine in your boat. I also agree with Sea3Po that the extra 10 hp may put the boat up in the range you want--but you may not be all that happy with the boat at that speed. You will certainly be using more fuel--and have some risk of decreasing the longivity of the engine. Yes, a different prop and transmission/engine box, engine beds, etc are all going to have to be done. Is it worth it? I watched the Nordic and American Tug trawlers go thru the HP race--I don't think it was a wise decision--but that is what some folks want.

Please keep us all posted on how the boat does, and what the fuel consumption is as you increase the HP and speed.

Pat Anderson · Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject:

OK, Amazon has The Nature of Boats for $15.58, just ordered, guess I will give her a read...

Jazzmanic · Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject:

Look out Pat, Joe's right on your tail! 2387 - 2359 = 28 more posts to go!

Peter

Byrdman · Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:25 am Post subject:

Thanks Bob... Now I have homework again. I, like Pat will order this boat and read up a bit. Why am I having Nun flashbacks??? Bob, no rulers please. Thanks again for your input. I enjoy the educations.

Hey Pat... Look what we found a few miles from home up here on the Cumberland River Cruise. Sweeeet.

Byrdman

dotnmarty · Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:48 am Post subject:

Regarding Bob's analysis of the limitations of the 21' tug, I remember talking to Les Lampman about this at the Poulsbo gathering a couple of years ago. I was certainly pleased with the look of the craft that Les had brought down from Oak Harbor. He gave a thorough description of her design and capabilities, not as limitation, but as this particular boat's 'nature'. I think that's what Bob is saying also. It is what it is, and, to me, that seems a very nice thing.

drjohn71a · Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:45 am Post subject:

Such good and accurate advice and info here! A recent 'letter to the editor' complaint to Passagmaker magazine conveyed disappointment and even charged bias on the part of Passagmaker's evaluators in their not mentioning certain sea-keeping characteristics of semi-displacement hulls over displacement and planing during their onboard boat reviews.

The editor guy just replied what you guys are saying... there is no magic wand. Each design has plusses and minuses. Trying to push displacement design more toward the semi-displacement , or planing is mainly just going to cost you more money and sacrifice some handling characteristics.

I really like that little 21EC Ranger myself. Looks like it'd make about the best single handled fishing boat around, BUT we have fairly sudden storms here and often have to put the "handel to the metal" and get out of Dodge as fast as possible. As such, the performance is just too slow for emergencies... John

drjohn71a · Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject:

btw - there is a thread on this site showing the addition of "spray rails" on the bow of some C-Dories. I have seen wider versions of these put on the aft sections of semi-displacement boats to throw the spray away at speed.

John

Sawdust · Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject:

As usual the wise ones are spot on. The Ranger 21 EC is a great little boat. I have many hours in her, some in really nasty weather. If you want to cruise at 10+ knots, don't get a little displacement-hull tug. I've heard that time and time on here. Dave Livingston did a remarkably good job of changing the hull shape on this little jewel where 8-10 knots is attainable. 6-8 knots is a great, comfortable, cruising speed for the 21 EC for this old goat, and she'll still top out fast enough to run Deception at full flood/ebb -- pedal to the metal, friend.

Dusty

Pat Anderson · Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject:

Peter - I conceded long ago - I still have 7 more years in my working career, no way I can match Joe's output.

mikeporterinmd · Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject:

Quite a few years ago, I was heading into the sun, and preparing to
pass a relatively small displacement type boat. I remember thinking
he was going somewhat fast for a boat of that length when all of
sudden we were airborn (this was on a 25' deep-V boat). He was
pushing a good three foot wall of water off his hull. Cracked some
trim on my boat when we landed. Anyhow, that seemed like an
expensive way to move - pushing all that water around.

Mike

thataway · Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:51 pm Post subject:

Although there are modifications of hull forums which will give more effeciency and increased speed under certain conditions, there is no real magic. Most "break thrus" in hull design are just evolutions of basic forums. The "tug trawlers" are hulls which can be driven to planing speeds with enough hp. A true displacement boat --such as many sailboats, and a real tug boat--cannot go to a speed much beyond 1.5 x sq root LWL--they just dig a bigger hole attempting to climb over the bow wave and get on a plane. (Of course there are a number of sail boats which will plane but these have a different hull form.

I see the the C Ranger 21 as mostly a day cruiser--fishing--touring boat with occasional overnight accomidations--at a modest speed and very good economy. These features are extremely laudable in a small boat. If one wants a fast boat, I would choose a different hull form--and probably different power plant.