Old fiberglass in water - an issue?

[Josh]

I'm looking this weekend at an '87 22' cruiser that's been sitting in a covered slip (freshwater) with very occasional use (150 hours total) for what sounds like the last 15 years. So basically since new, it's been in water. Anything I should know about this? Anyone have any opinions about a fiberglass hull with this kind of environment?
According to the pics sent to me, it looks like the boat could use a scrub & wax, but it looks like it's in really good shape otherwise. Like I said, I'm hoping to look at it this weekend - so I'll know for sure what it looks like, etc... but I'd really like to hear some opinions or thoughts...

Thanks guys,
Josh

[Sea Wolf]

Josh- I, too, have a 1987 Cruiser. It's extremely well made with meticulous craftsmanship in the fiberglass lay-up and elsewhere. It has been in fresh water for the past three years. I did have it barrier (epoxy) coated and then painted with anti-fouling paint. I have had absoloutely no problems with blistering or anything else, other than some incidental growth of algae on attached fittings, such as fish finder transducers, etc.

I believe the quality of the materials used in the C-Dory are top of the line, and I've never heard of one developing blistering problems or any other similar problems other than that a few boats manufactured a few of years ago that had the screws for the bow strip drilled too deeply and water subsequently leaked into the front bow buoyancy tank.

What I would do, if I were you, would be to haul the boat, if possible, and check the hull for algal growth and its ease of removal. Then check the screws mounted in the outside, such as for the transducer, for tightness (to see if they seem tight and waterproof). Then look inside the hull, particularly in the bilge between the gas tanks. Is there evidence that water has been left standing there? Are the screws that hold the gas tank, battery (if one is mounted there), and bilge pump tight? Can you see any unusual swelling in the appearance of the fiberglass?

Another place to take a serious look is at the top of the transom. See if it looks as though water has penetrated the hull between the inner and outer fiberglass layers. The transom is solid plywood between fiberglass layers, instead of balsa cored, but the same problems can develop if water penetrates the laminates. With the stress expected in this area, major delamination has to be countered with major surgery. A small amount of cracking/separation can be fixed with special liquid epoxies that will fill in and rebind the wood together.

Even in a covered slip, rain can be blown into the hull, where it will set until it evaporates unless removed by a bilge pump or some other method. (I had some much water blown into my boat from the edge of the roof at one covered marina that I had to build screens to block it.) If you have serious concerns about water penetration, a Marine Surveyor can assess the condition with a moisture meter under specified conditions, for a FEE.

The C-Dory is a great boat, with quality throughout; and the CD-22 Cruiser has best all-around floor plan for the vast majority of people. The older hulls have teak hand rails externally and Decagard sDecagard teak wood rear doors and interior cabinetry, that I, personally, prefer to the plain white of the later models. Good Luck and let us help you if you have further questions. Joe

[Rock-C]

Hi Josh
Sounds like a good find. Joe has some good advice. Pull the boat out of the water and check the gel coat for cracks or voids. Before I found my boat I looked at one in SW Washington that was pretty beat up. The boat was solid but the hull had several cracks and holes in the gel coat. If left un-checked, it will absorb water into the balsa core.
What motor does it have on it, equipment, trailer, electronics?
There is nothing wrong with an older C-Dory hull if is has not been abused. My boat had 140 hours on it when we got it last Aug. There was no way I could have afforded a new boat, and this one is in great condition.
Good luck and keep us posted

[Jon - CLou]

Josh, Cynthia and I have a 1986 C-Dory Angler. When we purchased it, the hour meter showed 2800 hrs on the 70, 2 stroke Johnson and no telling how many hours on the kicker. At any rate, we know that our boat has been out on the water most of her life. She's built solid and to this day I can't find a loose screw anywhere. The only thing that I would change if I could do it all over again is : Buy one no earlier than 1987 due to the change of the flat bottom hull. Our year was the last year of the true flat bottoms. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong at all with the pre 1987's, but the ride is going to be a little smother on the 87's and up. This is my second 22 foot C-Dory, my first was a 1981 and loved it too.
They are incredible boats! I had my bacon saved by my 1981 Dory in the 1990 Port Angeles wind storm. Seven people died in that storm that day and I was the last boat to return to port. I was 30 miles west of Port Angeles when this freak storm hit, and yes, that is why without any hesitation I purchased another "OLDER" C-Dory.
Jon

[DaydreamC-26]

Josh,
If you gonna be spending more than say $5k and you intend to have expectations of this boat (- power / sail - doesn't matter) to bring you back safely every time I would suggest that you consider having a qualified marine surveyor give it a thorough survey. It will be a few hundred well spent.

Looking at a used boat will only reveal the obvious defects, if any. If there is water intrusion through the many "holes" in the boat, i.e., hardware, through hulls, you may not discover the problems until the check cleared.

Good Luck,
Gene
PS: This is experience talking. I'm re-decking my second sailboat!!

[Josh]

Well thanks everyone for input on this. I did take Joe's advice & really looked hard at those things that would be dead giveaways.
So, my wife Julie & I took the trip (3 hours) to go spend 1/2 hour looking at this thing not knowing what to expect. We got there & here's this yacht club full of 50+ footers & we completely missed the little CD 22 - we were looking so "up" that we didn't see this little guy - we actually had to jump down off a ladder from the dock to the boat...
I took 22 (lucky number maybe?) digital pics & have posted a few of the relavent ones here under this section's photos.
HERE is a photo of the transom near the motor brackets - no cracks, swells, nothing. It looked nice & sealed.
HERE you will find a shot of the tank brackets. Also very tight, not sloppy, no rust, etc...
HERE is back behind & along the side of one of the tanks. Clean - no sign of standing water, etc.
HERE is probably the least-attractive part of the boat. There are 2 spots where the side rubber is coming out of the moulding (if that's what you call it). I'm not sure of the extent of getting that back in there or if it's stretched, torn or what - I just noticed the problem. About algae - there is some algae on the bottom of the boat (has bottom paint), but it easily comes off by rubbing my finger on it. The spot I quickly rubbed, left a brown stain, so I'm not sure of the extent of that as well.
All in all, I thought it seemed very solid & no sign of any water penetration at all. It looked hardly used (154 hrs to be exact). Up in the bow area, there are no signs of any moisture whatsoever - corroded nuts or anything. The wood definately looks it's age, but I'm sure that's typical. Motors are Johnson 70 & 9.9 - he thinks they're 4-stroke, but doesn't know for sure (he's selling it for an older friend) - I don't know what to look for in differences, so I've not a clue other than I've seen many posts about Johnson 2-strokes from the same era.
If anyone's interested in seeing all of the pics I took, I've got a 900K .zip file I can email. I really do appreciate all of your thoughts & advice on this as you all are way more expert at these things than I am (for now).
Oh - since this has been in a slip it's whole life, there is no trailer - any leads on a trailer for a 22 - in case I decide it's a go?
Thanks again,
Josh & Julie

[Larry H]

Josh,

I looked at your pictures and the rubber insert in the rub rail can probably be put back into the aluminum rail.
You can press the rubber back into the track. It may need to be heated (gently) with hot water or a hair dryer. Use a flat screwdriver (gently) to pry or press on the edges of the rubber insert. A little dish soap will help the rubber slide back in.

[Sea Wolf]

Josh- The Johnson's are undoubtably 2-strokes. The Nancy H is right on about the rub rail. Mine pops out similarly whenever I "Kiss" the dock a little to emphatically! Have considered seating it more permanently with some removable compound, like silicone rubber, but have never done so. Not really a problem.

This boat will be a considerable project, just to do the cosmetic stuff, but that's only a labor of love! That's the easy part. Since I have a similar model, I can advise you on some of the things I did in order to restore mine to first class condition. These need to be considered from a time, labor, and cost standpoint. Here goes:

The engines probably need a complete tune up. This would include replacing lower end gear lube, new water pump, plugs, through cleaning of the fuel system and replacement of filters, compression testing, carb synchronization (if necessary), ignition timing, idle adjustment, dyno testing, and a complete over all inspection. In addition, my service department recommended I replace all the fuel lines and purge the tanks of crud that accumulates over the years. Did all of it on my Evinrude 90 and Johnson 15 motors at a cost of about $500 four years ago. (Bay Area price, don't know if the labor is cheaper up there.)


There will be other costs. I needed a cracked window replaced ($45 for the glass -I did the installation), 2 new batteries (say, $6o or more each), a broken VHF antenna replaced (about $100 for a good one), new lines, lots of small miscellaneous electrical parts (fuses, bulbs, wiring, solderless connectors, etc.), clear urethane finish and sandpaper to refinish the handrails and renew the glaze on the Decaguard interior, loads of cleaning and polishing agents, spare tire and mount, and eventually a few larger projects that can be done much later, like a windlass and cabin heater, etc.
Check out all the electronics to see if you have any dead warriors.

The trailer is another issue. A new one will cost something in the neighborhood of $3000 or more. Finding a good used one would be a less expensive way to go, but they're usually not easy to come by, especially one that fits the specific boat. Usually one winds up buying a used trailer that will work with some modifications/adjustments to the bunks/rollers, balance point, bow post/guide, side guide-ons, etc.

Then the trailer has to be serviced. Wheel bearings need to be repacked, seals replaced. The surge brakes will need inspecting and adjustment. I had to replace the front unit which incorporates the coupling hitch and hydraulic actuator (master cylinder), and replace the brake linings. This ran about $350 at a trailer shop. The lights had to be trouble shot and made functional- Did this myself, $5-10.

After about three or four months of use and a blow out, I decided to replace all four tires and wheels, keeping the best one of the original four for a spare: $400 from Cabela's. Spare tire mount $35+ $5 shipping.

You can probably find a used trailer of sorts for anywhere from $800-$1500 or more, depending on type and condition. By the time you get it up to decent road standards (if you plan to trail much), you'll probably have $1400-$2000 in it. The hard part is finding a suitable patient to undergo the surgery!

Don't forget sales taxes, licences and registration fees. Here in Arnold's California, this can cost almost $200 on a $20,000 boat (!!!), which is why most people get a second Bill of Sale indicating a lower sales price from the seller to reduce the tax bite.

What I'd do if I were you would be to look up all the archived want ads on this and the C-Dog site to see what the average asking price has been for a similarly aged and equipped boat. Then deduct all the anticipated costs from that, and figure the absoloute max you would be willing to pay for the boat, then go and try to get it for as little as possible. At least you'll know your own bottom line and what you'e getting into!


This is not meant to be discouraging, but if you've never been down the Great Yellow Brick Road to Boat Owner's Poverty, you just might want to get some insight into why boats are sometimes refered to as a "holes in the water into which you throw money". "Irregardles", boat ownership is immensely FUN, treading water on top the Deep Blue Sea with the Devil draining you pockets from below. Welcome to the club!


Hope this helps and isn't discouraging. I also wrote it in such a way that other persons in the same situation later can use it as a reference, knowing that you already understand some or much of it. Joe.

[B~C]

Things to think about.....it's tough on an engine to just sit, moisture doesn't get cooked out, oil doesn't get splashed around...those old Johnson are a tough engine but make sure it was winterized and cared for regularly.
The boat may be priced right but factor in the trailer and perhaps a new engine in a few years and you may be better off spending a smidgen more and buying a boat that's sporting a little newer technology hanging off the stern. The four stroke engines are going to cost a bunch less to run + less noise and stink.....my $0.02
I think I saw mention of Sawdust selling the old Tyboo boat..that thing has a few extras on it and plenty of Columbia river fishing experience.....Mike hasn't caught a fish since he got rid of it
good luck with the hunt