Propane Storage

[therrick]

As part of my re-fitting project, I'm looking at adding a propane fuel system for cooking and cabin heating. I'm a little confused regarding where propane tanks can be safely stored. Understanding that propane is heavier than air and can collect in bilges, I'm wondering if I should have any concern about tank storage in the cockpit. Is there enough air movement - even when the air is quite still - to eliminate build-up of propane in the cockpit?

As an alternative to cockpit storage, I'm considering a 'hayrack', a la Redfox, for additional storage; perhaps a propane tank might be mounted to one of the vertical supports (which will also help counterbalance house batteries) which would vent overboard for the most part. At least I guess it would vent overboard, but that might depend on the prevailing wind.

I hope I'm being overconcerned, but I'd hate to blow up. I've seen a boat blow up once. Not pretty.

Advice???

Thanks,

Tom Herrick

[Sawdust]

Tom,

I too like propane, but look into the USCG regs on how and where to store the tank(s). There are many safety issues involved, and a remote switch to turn off the propane at the tank is a MUST. The regs are very specific on tank stowage, overboard drain, etc.

Joe is an expert on this stuff and will come aboard I'm sure.

Dusty

[thataway]

We have used propane for cooking on most of our large boats. The tanks were in deck mounted boxes, which drained overboard, or in a well in the boat deck, again which drained overboard. Below decks we had a propane sniffer both under the stoves and in the bottom of the bilge. If I had a propane locker in a cockpit, I would certainly have a sniffer right under the bottle and check it regularly--plus turn off the valve on the tank when not in use.

There is a difference between the 22, where a box in the cockpit would not drain overboard--and the 25 or Tom Cat where a box in the cockpit would potentially drain overboard thru the scuppers.

I kept propane cartrages in the C Dory 22 in the side pockets of the cockpit in plastic bags to keep spray off them. In the Tom Cat, I am keeping the cartreges in the fish boxes in a plastic box. I am not convinced this is the best place--because this does not drain overboard, but since the cartreges rarely leak (but can)--I don't turn on the macerator pump until I have removed and checked the propane cartreges. Maybe I am over reactive--but I saw my first boat blow up and burn when I was 10 years old. That image is well burned in my mind.
I have seen several other boats also explode and burn--plus a very close friend was badly burned and almost died from a cartrege being inserted into a stove, when all of the gas leaked and an open flame ignited the gas.

[therrick]

Thanks, Dusty. I've been reviewing the USCG Boatbuilder's Handbook, but the only specs I've found thus far regarding propane have to do with LPG use on commercial boats; they don't actually explain anything, but rather, refer to sections within ABYC and NFPA standards. I'd have to become a member to buy these, or pay an exhorbitant price to find out the proper way to handle propane on my boat. I've not found any other reference to LPG storage on the USCG Web site.

I guess that's the way of our federal government (regardless of which party's in charge at the moment); (1) make rules, (2) make them impossible to find or understand, (3) people have to hire a professional to help them abide by the rules. Even when the rules make sense (and I think most are based in logic) it seems that it's handled in such a way as to promote/protect a certain segment of our economy.

The info may be out there in plain sight, but I've yet to find it.

T

[therrick]

Thanks, Bob.

It was back in 1975 in the marina near Houston where the In-the-Water Boat Show I was working for was setting up. An Owens just exploded in the covered slips. I can still remember it clear as day. I don't think one can ever forget those experiences; and we probably shouldn't. Are you being overreactive? I don't think so; not at all.

I'm thinking that the hayrack mount would be the best approach. Then any leaks would be dissipated into the atmosphere. Even with the bimini top enclosing the cockpit on those colder, wetter trips we'd have to have a leak in the hose or fittings to have a problem. Which would never happen... right? Now that I think about it, probably better get a series of sniffers under each fitting between the tank and the cooktop and the Force 10. Might be better to get used to granola bars and extra blankets...

Oh, and while we're on the subject, anyone know anything about propane quick-disconnects? I like the idea, but if they're anything like my air compressor fittings, I'll be toast on the first trip out.

Lots to learn...

T

[teflonmom]

I have said before that the port side locker on the CD-22 is plumbed overboard. I store my propane and butane cooking gas small tanks there. They make very small aluminum propane tanks. Perhaps one of these sizes would fit and could be plumbed into the cabin. It would be wise to have it done to the yacht codes by a good yard.

Cooking tops use very little gas and a small tank would last a good while. The light tanks would be a lot easier to carry to a refill spot than the steel 20 pound bottle on my last large trawler.

Fred and Pat Messerly Red Lion, Pa.

[Fairbro]

I remember the West Marine catalog had schematics of propane installations complete with solonoid shut offs, lockers, and safe routing diagrams. I'm scared of propane on boats too and when I had it on my enclosed pontoon all the tanks and hoses were outside. I still worried about couplings and fittings getting jarred loose during towing, pounding, Etc. Don't forget a CO DETECTOR.

[Sea Wolf]

Here is the West Advisor's article on propane systems and storage:

Safe Propane Installations

I won't repeat what they've said, or what has been said above.

I'm not afraid of propane, but know that I must treat it with great respect and stay on top of the propane system's maintainence.

Make sure everything is done correctly, and test the connections and valves for leaks with soapy water in the fall before you go into the winter heating season.

One problem with a 22 is that of limited space for the rather elaborate system. I chose to locate the tank in the engine well, thinking that any leaking propane would drain overboard thrugh the openings and not into the cockpit.



Be sure to install a propane detector wherever you think the stove, heater, or tank would accumulate any leaking propane.

A carbon monoxide (CO) detector should be installed inside the cabin, and a fire alarm as well.

They make nice readymade propane lockers, but they take up quite a bit of space, and you should be able to create a workable system within your boat structures.

Joe.

[therrick]

Thanks, Joe.

Yeah, I'd seen the West Marine info page. They seem, however, to give short shrift to the issue of propane tank storage; only to say that it must be stored in a locker. Is that in all cases? What if it's mounted on the side of the boat where any leak would be dissipated into the atmosphere? Somehow I think that there are various scenarios concerning propane storage on a non-bilge boat. West Marine may not have much incentive to explain the alternatives when they are charging about $500 for a fancy plastic box. Perhaps I'm too cynical, but I've seen pics of C-Dorys on this site that have the propane tanks stored on the cockpit floor in a box with holes in it, venting it to the outside air; possibly to collect on the floor in explosive amounts - or not. I just don't know.

Thanks for the pic of your tank location. Looks like a safe, workable solution to me. I'm thinking of putting a Force 10 in the galley corner; very near the cast iron camp stove I got from Cabela's. I'm hoping that a single propane detector will work for the two since they'll be within 18-inches of each other. If I remember correctly, your heater is ~16-inches forward of the cabin wall between the windows. In my little '84 Classic there's precious little room anywhere for a heater; ideally they should be mounted low, but... I'm hoping that a low-speed fan at the cabin wall over the dining area that will circulate the warm air down and forward into the V-berth so that I don't have to take winter trips in the Strait of Juan de Fuca alone.

Maybe I need to bite the bullet and buy one of the ABYC books on the subject to get the pertinent details. I hate to not understand...

Thanks,

T

[Sea Wolf]

[Fairbro]

Any heavier than air gas that escapes into the cockpit of my C-Dory 22 will have an easy path to the cabin trough the bilge pump well.

[thataway]

It tisn't cheap to get the ABYC standards--you have to join, then buy the standards. I did a quick search and didn't see that C Dory was listed as a member of ABYC or of NMEA (The Tom Cat was susposed to get NMEA certification--so this is a bit confusing). If we ever get our ultrasonic testing hull testing devices to market, I am going to join ABYC--might just do it anyway--the cost is about $400 for standards and membership.--Yearly dues I believe remain at about $170 for a non manufacturing business.

If the tank is in the air--top of a boat, on a rack where vapor is not going to pool in an enclosed area this is OK.--the outboard well would be fine.
Definately get Aluminum tanks--they are lighter and last many times longer than steel. I have a nice small one, I'll never use again--it was a backup--and I use it for heaters around the porch etc...But needs the new valve, and most likely a hydro test. If you can get the tank in the draining well, that would be fine-but the drain must be in the bottom. I would personally want to have the hoses and fittings protected so they could not accidently be broken if steped on.

[therrick]

Still visiting options for mounting the propane tank. Joe's option works in the newer C-Dorys with wider engine wells; my Honda 90 takes up quite a bit of room in the well of my '84.

Under consideration is simply a bracket bolted to the transom to balance out the kicker. Seems to meet all the needs of leak venting and it's out of my way. Would have to fabricate a cover to thwart fishing line tangles, but otherwise seems to make some sense.

Anyone see problems with mounting the tank off the transom that I'm not considering?

Thanks,

Tom

[thataway]

I would want an aluminum tank--and a good cover for the regulator. The regulators are made partly of pot metal (at least most I have seen) and may corrode if spashed with salt water. There is the remote danger of something hitting the tank back there, and breaking a fitting. Probably you would want to shut off the tank valve. Personally I would feel better making a fiberglassed box for the tank to sit in--and then attatch that aft.

[Sea Wolf]

If you want a fiberglass or other protective box around the tank, perhaps a plastic milk carton carrier would work, as it is strong, well ventilated, and readily available.

Two of slightly different sizes could be combined into a double strength arrangment, one upside down within another and with a cutout to get to the valve.

Joe.