New rope to chain splice idea!

[Sea Wolf]

I thought I'd show you an idea I've been using to splice rope to chain so as to better help it pass through the windlass.

We've had some problems with the standard method with some windlasses, where the three strands are passed around the last link in the chain and then woven back into the rope.

The problem is that that double woven portion of the rope where it is spliced to the chain is much larger in diameter than the rest of the rope and sometimes catches and jams in the windlass.

If this is a problem for you, here's a solution:

What I did was to weave two of the three strands down into the chain about 8 links or so, and to weave only the third back into the rope itself.

The two that go down the chain are sewn at each link as well as sewn, whiipped, and fused together with heat at their ends.

The one that is woven back into the rope is also sewn all along the weave, and sewn, whipped, and heat fused at it's terminus.

Photos can be found starting here.

Joe.

[Dora~Jean]

Joe, what a great idea! Do you see any more wear on the 2 strands along the chain than the conventional method of roving all 3 strands at the end link and back down the line?

Mine occasionally (1 out of 5) hangs up going back into the locker, but I just reverse and 2nd time it usually goes. But hey, this looks like it would solve that 100%! Thanks.

[Sea Wolf]

Steve-

"Do you see any more wear on the 2 strands along the chain than the conventional method of roving all 3 strands at the end link and back down the line?"

No, in fact the wo strands are actually protected by the protruding outer "nuckles" of the chain links!

Joe.

[Sawdust]

Joe, you are a genius! Why the heck didn't I think of that. I'm supposed to know everything.

Dusty

[Sea Wolf]

Dusty-

I thought you'd be saying that you had thought of it first!

I guess some of us older bumblers get lucky once in a while and accidently stumble into something that's way beyond our few remaining thought processes!

Joe.

[dogon dory]

Sorry, Folks - Post Deleted By Author

[Sneaks]

Speaking of holding, didn't you leave an anchor on the bottom, Joe? Or did you finally pay a diver to scoop it back for ya?

Or am I mistaking you for somebody else who recently had an anchor get stuck?

Don

[Sea Wolf]

Dan-

Doesn't hold for beans in that old carpet on the bottom of my RV Barn!!!

Guess I need to get a jackhammer and open up some crevices or drill some holes and drop eye-bolts doiwn into the Portland Conglomerate Substrata. ( Bill Fiero will explain this term to geological neophytes in due process.)

Actually want to try out the CQR look-alike and Black Max Plow sometime soon. Think they'l actually dig in and hold on the clay, dirt, rock and gravel bottom of Shasta lLake better than the big FX-16 Fortress, which we recovered Sunday.

Don-

Yep, we got 'er back! Went up to Stein Creek (15 miles from Bridge Bay Marina) on Sunday to check out if we could still get the 24' pontoon boat (better working platform) back into the tree trunk infested, narrow cove.

The water was still 10 feet deep over the anchor, but we found it with our underwater camera (+ a ton of curious bass) and using some markers of string tied around the tree trunks back when the water was 17 feet deeper. We first got ahold of the underwater tree with a grappliing hook I had made.

We then anchored over it with a 18 lb mushroom anchor (less prone to getting tangled up), and my son then dove on it several times, bringing up the end of the 100 ft chain by pulling himself and the chain up on the new anchor rope.

After retrieving most of the 75 lbs of chain, we still needed to pry the anchor off of a 3 -4 inch diameter branch of a submerged tree.

I tied a line to a 4-foot crowbar and then taped it up with duct tape (The Sailor's Universal Solution to All of Mankind's Unfortunate Engineering Failures) for safe keeping so the knots wouldn't slip off.

I then lowered the crowbar down the anchor chain with my son (likely soon to be heir to my vast fortune) to pry loose the big hook .

Success on the first attempt!

Once aboard, we then had to unhook the mushroom anchor and the grappling hook that we had used to get ahold of the tree. Amazingly, the trees have been submerged since 1948 (58 years!), and are still pretty strong!

So we got 'er back, with little damage except for some algae growth that was fairly easily washed off.

Later, when the water has gone down another 12-15 feet, I'll go back in there to find the cap to my windlass that broke off during the wrestling match between my 90 hp Yamaha and the 58 year old sunken tree. Should be able to find it with a rake once the bottom is dry.

Which takes us back to this thread...

I decided to tell folks about the splicing idea since I had to redo it to my anchor chain and rope, so that gets us full circle!

I'll guess I need to copy this and attach it to the anchor thread, too.

Try not to be caught standing on the anchor chain when the Admiral pushes the windlass switch "UP"!!!

='s Anoither Genius Idea: "The Anchor Windlass Elevator"!! More money for my heirs!

Joe.

[sailor-d]

Joe - great idea.

I like the idea of getting away from shackles and galvanized eyes even without a windlass. Do you think it would be necessary/advantageous to do a crown knot first and then the chain splice and backsplice?

thanks - Dave

[Sea Wolf]

DAVE-

I had to look up the Crown Knot in the Scouting Handbook- "I ain't got no stinkin badges..., etc."

I have to admit, I'm not really familiar with this knot, though I can see how it works. Might be nice to tie all the strands together, though.

I really don't know for sure if it would help or not, but while reading about knots in general, I was reminded that knots, any knots, weaken rope by 50%!

Thinking about that, it might be simpler just to leave the two strands alone to run down the chain, and to keep it simple by just wrapping the third strand around the last link before weaving it back in and sewing it.

Seems that if you believe in the 50% weakening idea, a knot, any knot, would just weaken the system.

One of the strengths of this splice would be to transfer tension to the chain gradually over 7-10 or more links with two of the strands w/o the 180 degree bends that first weaken the rope strands by bending them, then help destroy them even further by putting greater tensions on the strands on the outside of the bends, which overloads those and breaks them. {This is why one doesn't want to use a turning block (pulley) with too small a diameter sheeve (sailor's concern).}

Plus the knot might make the splice larger and partially defeat the purpose which was to eliminate any bulge or diameter increase which would be hard to pass.

Would have to try it with the knot and see how it looks with it compared to going w/o!

Just my thoughs so far.

Thanks for asking!

Joe.

[thataway]

I have been using the rope to chain back splice (eyeless eye splice) since the late 70's when I acquired a "Sea Horse" windlass by S & L--one of the first production electric combination rope chain gypsies. I have used this splice for over 100,000 miles of cruising without failure, but when full time cruising, I do renew the splice when I end for end the chain each year. There never has been appreciable wear at the link 180 degree bend. U S sailing tested this splice very scientifically in June of 1994:
http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Studies/1994ropechainsplice.htm They found that it tested within 25 % of the breaking load of the rope--and often beyond the SWL of the chain.

Their studies showed that there was 25% loss of the strength of the line-which is about par for most splices, and no significant wear at the chain interface. Thus far I have not had a problem (and used this on 5 boats/windlasses)--with the splice. However I do taper the last three tucks of the splice, to give a more gradual transition--by 1/3 of the bundle on each of the last three tucks. I also fuse the ends flush with a soldering iron/rope cutting blade, or lighter and wet fingers (depending on size of the rope). I have also tried putting a short piece of heat shrink tubing in the splice throat.

I have personally been leary of the weaving the rope thru the chain, although there are some who swear by it. Many recommend relaying the rope to 4 strands, and interweavingthem. It depends on direct friction of the rope with the chain. The back splice is a slightly different principle. It is more like the chinese finger puzzel; the harder you pull, the tighter the lay becomes and grips the spliced strands. I don't believe that this is true for the woven chain splice. I am also a bit hesitant to rely on a splice which depends on sewing for strength (but again this is an accepted technique for some applications: some of the mega braids and flat ropes are handled this way, with whipping tightly, and then over sewing).

I did a splice like Sea Wolf suggests tonight, and it seems solid. If I get a chance I will put a come along on it and see what it takes to pull it apart, without the over sewing (I have some reservations about threads breaking and chafing with the over sewing). The only over sewing I have depended on was with served ropes and braids, or in the throat of thimble splices, where the lay of the rope remains dense and properly twisted. As you thread the strands thru the chain, they tend to come unlaid in this weave thus not as dense, and more likely that sewing will pull thru.

The crown knot is the basis of an end splice or back splice and is not really a knot which weakens the rope any more than a splice. However I don't believe that the use of a crown know would improve this idea.

Various knots fail at different rates, and depend also on shock loading vs straight sustained pull. The better knots are loop knots such as the bowline or bowline on a bite, the fisherman's knot, the Carreck bend or even the clove hitch, anchor/fisherman's hitch and tug boat hitch (a modified timberline hitch) thes are knots I tend to use rather than weaker knots--they retain 60 to 70% of the rope strength--but a little below a good splice. I have only broken one splice and that was on a load which was probably about 8,000 lbs on a 1/2" line. This was a white squall which suddenly hit a 60,000 lb boat on its beam and healed it over more than 70 degrees, with only a small sail up. I have put enough force on lines to have fused the strands with heat, and not broken them or their splices. (long story on that one)

Thank you for bringing this interesting chain to rope attatchment to our attention! I am going to stick to my tapered back splice over the link of chain for now, since I have long and satisfactory experience with it.

Regards,

[Sea Wolf]

Thataway-

Thanks for your comments, Bob. I always am enlightened by the bredth and depth of your knowledge and experience, and your keen analyitical thinking!

I thought I'd come up with something new with the splice, but see that it has been done before, which is not surprising considering it's logical derivation.

The only reason it was developed was that I sensed a need to reduce the finished size of the overall splice.

I'd like to hear about how your test comes out, and even how one might come out with the sewing included as well.

You have a very good point about the difference in how much different knots affect rope strength- a much more exact delineation knot type by knot type instead of a gross generalization of 50%.

Again, it has been most interesting and enlightening conversing with you, I only wish I could meet you in person, perhaps at a C-Brat Get Together such as the Seattle Boat Show or one of the in the water conventions!

Keep your comments coming on all the various topics we discuss. The conversation is usually not complete until we've hear from you and about your experiences.

Joe.

[thataway]

Well, a week late, a birthday making me a year older and a Labor Day pool party...I got around to doing the testing on the chain splice.

I will have to admit I was surprised. I used a Ford Excursion as the anchor, with brake set--tied the anchor rode to the tow eyes on the front, and the come along to the trailer hitch on the Honda Pilot. First test, was pulling the Honda Pilot up a 10% grade--no problem, and no strain on the splice.

Then I locked down the brake on the Honda, and started applying force to the come along. Please don't laugh (Ok laugh a little)--I don't have a strain guage, so I have 12/1 ratio on the come along, plus a 2:1 on the cable--and applied force until it took 50lbs (fish scale) to tighten the rope further--this should be close to 1200 lbs force at the splice (discounting friction--but since this is a relitatively static system at equilibirum, I think it is fair to discount friction). The splice into the chain held fine (this is without any siezing or over sewing!) What did happen, is that the line began to unlay. In other words, as I increased the force, the twist in the line (lays in the strand and rope are in opposite directions to counteract each other)--became three separate strands, instead of the bundled rope. This could be prevented by siezing the rode right above the chain, or equalizing the strain by taking the 3rd strand into the chain itself. I normally sieze all splices this way, except an end back splice. I would also put some adhesive heat shrink tubing over the siezing and this would not only lock the siezing, but protect the thread at a vulnerable place.

Is this better than the customary 3 strand or separate into 4 strands (out of the three) and weave them thru the chain? I don't know, but I am impressed on how well it held and think with the small weight/load of the C Dory it would work (with the addition of siezing the rode and heat shrink tubing.)

Again, thanks for the innovative thinking, Joe!

[Sea Wolf]

And thanks for the testing, Bob!

Interesting observations, too!

Good ideas regarding siezing, other alternatives.

Joe.

[Papillon]

Hey Guys, you two (Bob & Joe) are getting too damn Tecno for me. What this old Hillbilly wants to know is wheather the dang splice is going to hold my 22' in a 30-50 Knot Gale....Yes or No ?