Heater/Stove pipe installation...

[cbadmin]

From: C-LionRay (Original Message) Sent: 3/3/2003 7:00 AM
This is a discussion describing techniques to install heaters and vent pipes.

From: C-LionRay Sent: 3/3/2003 7:02 AM
For those of you who have installed stove pipes (vents) what did you use to cut the hole and how did you seal it? How thick is the roof where you cut the hole?
Did you cut it in the top of the extension or the lower section of the top or through the side?

From: Redƒox Sent: 3/3/2003 11:57 PM
Hey there Ray.

I sealed the wood between the fiberglass with Hi temp silcone, the copper stuff. I used a hole saw to cut the hole with. Don't do what I did and have such a short pipe like that though. I may have to re do mine and put it through the roof. I am going to pipe it through where the extended part is at an angle, faceing towards the cockpit.

From: C-LionRay Sent: 3/5/2003 2:16 AM
Thanks Greg. It should be here soon and I can't wait to get it installed. Any idea how thick the top is? I was thinking about using my rotozip if it is 1 inch thick or less. I sure don't want a leak in my nice warm and otherwise dry top.

From: Redƒox Sent: 3/5/2003 9:44 AM
Rayster;)

It ain't that thick up there. It dont have to be. I would recon it to be about 1/8th. I used the rotozip when cutting out the trim tab slot I made for my transducer. It went through 3/4 inch plastic and some of the thick stainles steel to boot! good tools they are! That roto tool will be fine for that. So you are mounting it next to the door then? are you thinking about exiting the stack out the angled part of the top (where I have my Red Fox name) or strait out the top?
It's great to read of your projects, that was one of the best things I did to my boat. Back in those days, my Force 10 was over $500. =O

Greg

From: C-LionRay Sent: 3/9/2003 8:20 AM
I'm thinking straight up through the top. I will decide where it goes when it gets here and I see how it's gonna fit. I plan to put rocket launchers on the angled part (rod holders)
I sure am looking forward to having a nice warm cabin I got a great deal. Force 10 with the flue and cap delivered for only $300!

From: Redƒox Sent: 3/9/2003 8:54 AM
Ray, those things can get in the way of casting, when they have poles in them. Are you sure you want them there?

Actually I think the top is more between a 1/4 and 3/16ths thick. I cut a big ol' hole in my cabin top to install the ventilator, years back. I think I would have midew problems without it. I strongly recomend a 24 hr day and night solar powered vetilator. They are spendy but also keep the cabin smelling nice when storing to. So many goodies to add to her ;) Well I'm out here, hopefully we can get into some kings today!

Broke and fishless still in Sitka.
Greg

From: C-LionRay Sent: 3/9/2003 6:39 PM
Greg, I'm not sure of anything other than I love my boat and I'm delighted that it is purring like a kitten. You couldn't beat this smile off my face with a stick...
Now it's time to celibrate!

From: Redƒox Sent: 3/9/2003 10:41 PM
Wow! Far flumin out dude!! Ray I steel those emoticons every time I see them;)

So it was the carbs then! cool:)

Hey no one with those rocket launchers is going to admit they get in the way of casting. hee hee, heck my antennas get in the way of casting for me because of the salwater snaging I have to do. They just would not work for me unless I took then all out, and then proceded to snag.
arg

From: C-LionRay Sent: 3/10/2003 9:04 AM
Actually I think it was the loose connection on the oil flow switch, but niether one is an issue now .

From: C-LionRay Sent: 3/18/2003 1:55 AM
Got my Force 10 in the mail today! Ready to position and get ready for install as soon as the other parts get here. Gotta get some sealant! It's smaller than I thought it would be. This is going to be a great addition!

From: Redƒox Sent: 3/18/2003 10:29 PM
Ray, be sure and get a kettle for the top!

From: C-LionRay Sent: 3/19/2003 1:56 AM
I haven't seen one near as nice as yours. Not sure I could afford it if I did but I would have to try...

From: C-LionRay Sent: 3/30/2003 1:39 AM
My flue does not fit over the exhaust flange. Is there a coupling or something that I need to get to connect the flue to the Force 10 Cozy Cabin Heater?

From: Redƒox Sent: 3/31/2003 12:07 AM
Ray, I'm not sure it is supposed to ? at least on mine it does not fit to the pipe. Cant really be of much help w/o seeing it. arg

From: C-LionRay Sent: 3/31/2003 2:55 AM
Greg, how does your flue connect to the stove? I looked at your pic again but that fancy pot was in the way. you should send me the pot and a pic of the heater without it , Just kidding of course.... unless you would do it?...

From: Redƒox Sent: 3/31/2003 10:40 PM
OK Ray now I see the spot your asking about. I used a piece of old motor cycle crash bar that was lying around the yard. It was just the right diameter (actually a bit over sized) and curvature to boot! and it does fit over the outlet on the stove top. Me tinks, your going to have to get an adaptor or go with larger tubing.

From: Redƒox Sent: 4/21/2003 3:06 PM
So Ray hows the heater working?

From: C-LionRay Sent: 4/22/2003 1:29 AM
Well, I can't afford to have the metal shop put the 4 bends in my stainless pipe. They want $244 to bend MY pipe. That's Two hundred forty four american dollars.
I would bend it myself but I was told that a pipe bender (hickey) would kink the 1" stainless.

Now I'm looking for an old motorcycle exhaust pipe . The holes are drilled save for the exhaust port and the through bulkhead fitting for the supply line and it looks good on the bulkhead. As soon as I get don refiting my teak I'll take some pics and get them posted.


From: Redƒox Sent: 4/22/2003 4:40 PM

ARG Ray! I can't believe it! there's got to be some one that will do it for less! If it were up to me I'd heat it with a torch then try bending.

That was old motorcycle crash bar I used to make mine with. ( I was just lazy and wanted to get the job done)The only problem with not using stainless is rust will eventually slow the exast ventilation and you will start smelling fumes. I solved that problem by first scraping the inside of the pipe then spaying a marine oil into the pipe and then letting the heater run full blast to bake the oil into the pipe. No more having to take the pipe off so often and clean the rust out anymore. If it were stainless though it might be totally maintenance free!

From: Redƒox Sent: 4/22/2003 6:59 PM
Well it's probably too late but here goes....



From: Redƒox Sent: 4/24/2003 10:52 AM
Ray good to read that in the Pub today, totally cool, something enjoyable about even working on these C-Ds I agree, probably because they make such a cute little home away from home:)

Hey that guard on my vent cap I did not realize was special, don't tell me there not including that anymore!! errrrr, those cheesy dudes!! I'm anxious to see them there photo's Ray, when you get the chance.

I figure I will leave my short vent pipe in place, I think it passes gas a good I do. What you can not see in the pix I took is the asbestos I used in between the caps and the bulkhead area, maybe if you look hard enough it might be apparent, but it's about a little over an eighth of an inch in thickness. I used to have a big ol' clumsy looking piece of teak on the outer cap part, but decided it would work just as well with some gaskets made out of asbestos, and it does.




From: C-LionRay Sent: 4/29/2003 7:23 AM
Hey Red Fox, I got it installed and posted pics just for you. They are under the discussion, "So What did you do on your C-Dory today?"
Or you could just use this handy short cut

http://groups.msn.com/CBratsOnline/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=9451&LastModified=4675419739266529292


From: C-Wolf1 Sent: 10/6/2003 2:47 PM
Heater Fans- I've just posted about a dozen or so photos on the CBrats Tech site under Cabin and Interior Photos regarding my installation of a Force 10 Cozy Cabin Heater on Sea Wolf. I incorpporated three alarms and a couple of fans to boost the heat output and circulation. Take a look on pages 4 and 5 . Joe

From: Redƒox Sent: 10/7/2003 12:04 PM
Beautiful installation Joe! I linked them pix...

starting here ..

for all to see. I hope this gets the word out on them, Force 10s, more. Not all have the $$ for a Wallas heater or stove! and the Force 10 has been a real winner for me in my boating environment. I'll be back to read more about your project latter, with my slow modem and all, I'll have to do it after my work day. tnx again!

From: C-ATTL-Angler85 Sent: 10/7/2003 9:19 PM
I just picked up a Coleman Catalytic propane heater, which sits right in the corner next to the door. There is even a nice little fan that operated on 2-D batteries. The heater was $85, and it's portable, so if/when I get full camper canvas in the back, I could move it around. It claims 3,000 BTUs. I just tried it once, and it is very quiet, and a little smell but not bad, especially since I like to keep some fresh air coming in. The wallas stove is $1350, and the heater is about $600. Since I haven't seen this option mentioned anywhere, I'm concerned I did something really dumb and just haven't found out yet. I'm somewhat concerned if the propane were to leak, but many of these other options would have the same concern (did you all put propane detectors in?). I wonder also if these other options, such as the Wallas or Forced Air emit any odors as well.
Any comments welcome (now, where off to look for advice on anchors).
Vic

From: Mike Sent: 10/7/2003 9:55 PM
Evenin' Vic.

We have one of those Coleman catalytic heaters. It is the same element as yours, but without the plastic case and the fan. We have used it in the cabin many times, and while it heats well and quickly, it does induce a whole bunch of condensation. Not as much as the alcohol stove, but still a lot. We never leave it on when we go to sleep, and we always set it outside when the propane bottle is screwed on and it is turned off.

Often when we are fishing we will set the heater up on the counter on top of the stove and use it for warming hands. The door is always open when fishing, but the heater does help keep the chill out of the cabin. We don't set it on the floor while we are apt to be moving around the cabin, for obvious reasons.

They work great if you remember all the common sense rules, even though there are a few inconveniences with using them. Ours has always been a temporary, cheap solution to get us by until we get a Wallas. We are hoping that will be soon.

Mike

From: C-ATTL-Angler85 Sent: 10/8/2003 8:35 PM
Mike,
Sounds good, and very similiar to my situation. I think it will get me through the winter, and I'll learn as I go. Why all the condensation with this (or alchohol for that matter) vs say the Wallas? How would thi induce moisture into the air, if that is what is happening?
Thanks for the feedback,
Vic

From: C-Wolf1 Sent: 10/9/2003 3:21 AM
Vic- All heaters produce water vapor and carbon dioxide from the combusion process. Stoves specifically intended for marine use vent these gases plus any carbon monoxide, unburned fuel, and soot outside through the exhaust stack. That's why they're so much safer.

Portable unvented stoves/heaters dump these combustion by-products directly into the cabin air. Water vapor condenses out on anything cold like the windows just like water condensing out of the air on the side of a cold glass of ice water. Hence sweaty windows.

In very cold situations, the water condenses out on the entire surface of the fiberglass cabin, producing the dreaded "wet cave" situation. Greg covered and insulated the entire inside of Red Fox's cabin with carpet to minimize this.

We also give off water vapor and carbon dioxide when we breathe. The same condensation occurs with that water vapor. A warm externally vented cabin heater heats the inside air which helps keep this water from condensing inside the cabin. Those that use some of the inside air for combustion (some use air from the outside to burn the fuel) take this extr water vapor outside as a routine part of their burning and venting operation.

The burning of alcohol for fuel produces a higher percentage of water vapor as opposed to carbon dioxide, making it a particularly hard to deal with fuel for a non-vented heat source. There's more to this discussion, and I'll repost it in the next post. Hope this helps. Joe

From: C-Wolf1 Sent: 10/9/2003 3:29 AM
Vic- Here the more complete discussion of heater vent issues, including carbon dioxide issues. Joe

To all with heater concerns:

. Here are some facts about this topic that I can pass along to everyone. I want to emphasize here that I'm not lecturing to you, but think all of us that consider the many heater alternatives need to know the following facts.


All stoves that use fuels (alcohol, propane, keroscene, diesel, gasoline, "parafin", etc) produce carbon dioxide and water as a by-product.

If the stove/heater used is unvented to the outside, the water collects on your windows and other cool places as liquid condensation, and is a serious nuisance, but not an immediate health problem. The carbon dioxide is odorless, invisible, and remains in the air. In moderate amounts, the carbon dioxide itself is not a problem, but there's more to the issue, but first let's consider the two basic types of combustion.

Those stoves that use a conventional flame burn at a higher temperature than the catalytic heaters, but they both use just as much oxygen to burn the fuel. It takes the same amount of oxygen to burn a pound of propane (or any other fuel), whether it burns catalytically or in an open flame. In the case of propane heaters, the flame heater burns at about 1200 degrees F, and the catalytic heater at about 750 degrees. They both produce the same amount of heat for a given amount of fuel, the catalytic type just burn at a lower temperature and are therefore considered safer because of the lack of an open flame and because of the cooler temperatures on the body of the heater. Somehow manufacturers seem to imply that the catalytic type doesn't use oxygen, but nothing can be further from the truth.

There are several serious problems to be very much aware of for all these fuel heaters.
The first problem is that all these fuels use up the oxygen in the air, and without venting through an open window, or, better yet, a vent tube to the exterior, the heater uses up all the available oxygen in the enclosed space and results in death to occupants due to asphyxiation (oxygen deprivation). Our friend, Fishwisher, from the original C-Dogs site, one recanted a story of a couple of fishermen who died this way in a houseboat with flowerpots on a propane stove.
The second problem is that as the oxygen begins to become depleated in a closed enviornment, the lack of oxygen begins to cause the stove or heater to produce carbon monoxide from "incomplete combustion". This means that with the lack a fully normal amount of oxygen (20% in air, normally), we get some CO produced rather than all CO2. In addition, faulty, old, or dirty heaters can be a serious source of CO even with an adequate supply of oxygen.

Now, as a result, we get carbon monoxide poisioning . This is like running the vacuum cleaner hose from your car's tailpipe into the rear window of your otherwise closed car. The carbon monoxide combines with the hemoglobin in your red blood cells that ordinarily carries oxygen into and carbon dioxide out of the body . However, the carbon monoxide has a special afinity for the hemoglobin, doesn't let go, and eventually all of the hemoblobin is tied up with the carbon monoxide, thus the body dies for lack of oxygen (asphyxiation again, or more specifically, carbon monoxide poisioning.)

Thus we have two issues here, lack of oxygen and the presence of a toxin, or poisionous gas. They usually occur together.

Now we can see why vent pipe on an on board heater is so important. Some heaters go a step further and bring in the "combustion air" in from outside, but the real issue is to get rid of the combustion by-products. Before you use a catalytic heater in an enclosed space, read the fine print in the owner's manual; it will tell you abolutly not to do so!

Some heaters have a fan in the exhaust stream to do just this, and this allows the exhaust vent to be placed at a convenient location other than overhead in the cabin roof. But, as we've said, the important point is to vent the bad stuff out off the boat. It also gets rid of the water, which after it collects on the windows, etc, causes mildew problems and to some, at least, allergy problems. My advice is to get a vented heater and mainntain it religiously.

Read several advice sources such as the advice sections in theWest Marine, Boat U.S., and others until you feel comfortable with the job. And if you don't: get a professional to install this potentially lethal device that you need to have confidence in.
I'd also be very careful to install any heater very carefully according to the manufactuer's' directions, both to not only get the proper venting, but also to be sure to deal effectively with the fuel safety issues, especially with a gas such as propane. Call the factory rep if the owner's manual doesn't aswer your questions adequately.

Depending on your heater type, such devices as a carbon monoxide alarm, propane alarm, gasoline detector, smoke alarm, etc., would seem to be very valuable tools that could well save your life and represent a comparatively cheap life insurance policy.

That said, I'm hoping that this discussion hasn't offended anyone and hope you will all be careful when installing your solutions to the heater question.

Joe

From: MichaelOnTheClaraMae Sent: 10/9/2003 3:46 AM
Joe, thanks for a very good discussion on an important topic.

From: Moskwass Sent: 10/9/2003 5:45 PM
Hey there Stimpster
How is the Dickenson stove working for you. I would like to very much see your application. I have seen the pic but need more info.
Roger

From: Redƒox Sent: 10/9/2003 9:06 PM
Joe you have waxed eloquent again my friend!

You reminded me of another reason for choosing a simple heater that does not rely on a fan, or electricity to complete its task of venting the toxic by product of combustion. And that goes fro ALL fuel types. Don't worry about stepping on toes around here, the important thing is to tell the facts, and let the chips fall where they may.

PS: I'm now looking for a 'fume alarm'. I should have had one long ago... shame on me!


From: C-ATTL-Angler85 Sent: 10/10/2003 12:05 AM
Joe,
Excellent response. I'll continue to research the fine points between the various brands, and maintain plenty of ventilation when I'm using the little catalytic. Oddly, there was no paperwork in the box; I'm curious to check for that fine print. This will all help to justify the $$ to get this set-up really nice with an externally vented system. Thanks for taking the time invested in your response.
Note: I'm sure it would be easy to install a propane detector in the bottom of a cabinet, just like my old camper, which ran off 12V. It needs to be down at the floor, since propane sinks.
Vic

From: C-Wolf1 Sent: 10/10/2003 4:01 AM
Vic-Thanks for the compliments. Did you see the propane detector near the floor on my Force 10 Cozy Cabin Heater? (Pages 4 and 5 of the Cabin and Interior Photos)

Greg- Thanks! Did you have any engineering comments about how I worked the Cozy Cabin Heater into the 22 Cruiser? It's a difficult fit with all the dedicated space designed into the cabin lay-out.

I think I've also come tto the conclusion that the metal polishes we're using on the heater are themselves giving us problems. Besides having the polihing (mildly abrasive) compound, there are chemical cleaning agents and a wax in the polish. It all works great until the heater is cranked up full on and the wax at the top of the outer stainless body turns brown from the heat. If this is really what's happening, maybe we need to find a polish without a wax, or simply remove the wax from the upper part of the heater with acetone or laqer thinner after polishing. I'll try it and see. Joe.

From: Redƒox Sent: 10/10/2003 8:09 AM
Joe, thought you'd never ask.... Ok, one concern of mine was, the vibration "frequency", that may come from the strips of metal, mounting the heater. If I went that route, I would incorporate some rubber grommets into the brackets off the stove or the metal strip mountings, some how. The reason for this is all the vibration that goes through the hull and cabin when cruising in less than perfect water. Also engine vibration may be a concern also? ... I doubt that though, but if you do some trolling on your main engine, it might rattle the Force 10, some.

How about that heat shield? I don't have a need at all for one on mine, the bulkhead area never gets hot no matter how high I have it cranked up. I admit though that the outside area around the flue cap, gets a little on the warm side. I used to have a thick piece of teak wood, but took it off and went with asbestos, because it was thinner and required no maintenance.

As far as polishes go, I don't use any. I like the idea someone here suggested, about using a piece of Scotch Bright, as a polish/cleaner. I'm with ya on the smell of the waxes and cleaning solvents burning off. I used them for a while, but I also like the "antique" look they get from being used a lot. I totally gave up on the heaters top plate staying that pretty copper color! These little Force 10's, sure do clean up and look pretty though, it's nice to see them looking there finest to, but mine is so low and out of the way, I just don't notice it much. I do always notice the ambience at night... and I love it. The way my interior is, in it's, open V-berth area, it makes for a nice night lite.

Hey did your C-Dory come with that Propane stove top? I like it! nothing cooks so well as propane, huh. I also like your hatch idea! it's greatly needed when frying stuff... I bet!

Hey! you got me to thinking of ways I can improve on my mounting area as well. Such as getting the heater up off the floor a little more, incase of a fuel spill in the cockpit area or potential accumulating fumes? I don't really think it needs to be done, and I really like the present (low) location of it. It's a great 'bun warmer', that low. One thing for certain though. I'm getting a detector/s, soon. I'm still trying to find one. I'm going with a battery powered unit. Greg

From: C-Wolf1 Sent: 10/10/2003 10:44 AM
Greg-Thanks for the questions, I'll try to answer them now:

The blocks of wood that form the last parts, upper and lower, of the mounting bracket are already insulated with a full form 3/16 " black neoprene rubber sheet material between the wood block and the boat surface to limit vibration. Of course, the bolts that go down through them to the boat still will carry some vibration up to the bracket and the stove.

I just completed the project last week, so haven't had time to get Sea Wolf in the water yet, so will have to wait and see about the vibration transmission. I imagined I might face a problem with the heat shield acting like a diaphram in an old style phone speaker, so added the rubber. There are also 1/4" thick 1-1/4" diameter round high temperature felt/composition washers between the stove and the heat shield and bracket. The whole thing is mounted as solidly as possible, and the exhaust stack holds the central copper cone inside the heater dead center in the stove and away from the outer sides.

We'll have to wait and see what happens when Cathy and I get back from next week's cruise down the St. Lawrence Seaway and New England coast from Montreal to New York. I'm going to tke the boat to Eagle Lake for some trout fishing then. Should lso find some cold weather to give it the full heating test.

I added the heat shield primarily because I was following the factory installation guide and it said I neded one to protect the surrounding areas. My guess is that the heater will be left on the very lowest setting possible continuously during the night. Around here, an electric heater on "low" (about 750 watts, equivalent to about 2600 btus) running continuously, does the trick in 35-45 degree weather. It can easily be removed from the sandwich layer construction if not needed.

Any sheet of stainless or aluminum of adequate thickness and structural strength could have been used, but I liked the extra strength of the stamped three dimensional shape that adds strength through compound curves, plus it has a welded and threaded 3/8" stud on the backside (originlly for a knob for the slurpee machine's lid) which I used to attach the upper fan bracket.

I well could be wrong about the polish and wax, with the limited testing I've been able to do on the trailer with the heat we have around here. Maybe the rustic tarnich comes from hot metal reacting with water, oxygen, and or ? in the air. Could it be escaped combustion gasses?

The three burner cooking stove and vent were added by the original owner. He said the OEM Origo 2-burner alcohol stove gave him headaches from the incomplete combustion (carbon monoxide poisioning?) and he added the vent and propane stove on the recommendation of an RV dealer friend.

I agree about the convenience of propane for cooking and all heat use. Nothing is faster to heat up, use cleanly, or quicker to shut down. Plus we don't have endless discussions about which type of propane to use or any clogged burner problems. Just have to be careful with the use of this powerful heating agent. At about $1.50 a gallon down here now, it's even cheaper than diesel or gasoline. The heater and stove are both simple an easy to use and rely on proven, simple, understandable technology, unlike the mysterious, high-tech, over-engineered Wallas rascals!

(Apologies to the Wallas owners. I think a lot of the problems with the Wallas can be attributed to fuel problems due to differences in petro-chemical engineering/production and the differences in molecular composition of the mixtures sold under various generic and trade names between the European and American insdustries. It doesn't help that apparently none of us speak Finnish or are petro-chemical engineers. For now,then, I'll take propane.)

On an interesting note, the local (Bay Area) enviornmental agency, Bay Keeper, has patrol bots that are Glacier Bay CCats. powered by Hondas fueled with propane as a test bed. I'll have to inquire about their evaluation of the project!

Glad to hear you're going to add a gas detector! The more elaborate systems have one detector, but can have multiple pick-up sensors added to them. They also have a solenoid unit which goes in the propane line next to the tank and shuts the propane off simultaneously with the alarm signal. This more sophisticated set-up, IMHO, is not necessary on a boat the size of the C-D. A simple, straight-forward alarm that goes off with an 85 db siren will wake me up at the first sign of gas leakage. The difference is also one of $300 vs $60.

Chuck S brought up the point of the possibility of gasoline fume leakage from the cockpit into the cabin. Could be a problem, especially with the bilge sump box and passageway build into the newer boats. A second simple alarm (they react to propane, gasoline, acetone, alcohol, etc) on the coutside of the bulkhead, would be an easy answer. Here's another possibility:

Since the stove pulls air in from the outside to replace the air consumed by combustion, I'm thinking that one could also just utilize the first sensor by leading a small, say 1/4" tube from near the bottom of the outside cabin bulkhead, say 3-4" above the floor, directly through the cabin to the immediate vicinity of the sensor inside. A leak in the cockpit with the door closed should be very quickly reported by this tell-tale system before enough fumes are brought into the cabin to do anything but set off the alarm. One would have to test the system out, of course, to be sure it works by placing a very lightly dampened rag with gasoline near the tube intake. One should also perform a separate propane fume leak test as well. The tube should have an upside down gooseneck in it to prevent water siphoning in wet cockpit conditions.

This also reminds me that there is a relatively large passage way into the cabin from the cockpit on the stsarboard side where are the control cables and electrical cables pass through the bulkhead. I closed the extra space off with a sponge to limit cold air intrusion behond that needed for combustion. There are several other passageways frresh air can get into the cabin (e.g., around the window gaps, hatches, door, etc), so closing this one off to limit heat loss and any possible vapor intrusion is probably a good idea. One could/should engineer the air intake into the cabin to specifically avoid getting it from the cockpit. I'm thinking of connecting a tube from the sink drain over to the bottom of the heater burner so that cold air from the outside will be used as much as possible in the combusion process. (Would have to lift cold, dense air from the outside drain and might not work)

The 1/4" tube is a very small proportion of the air needed, and serves the purpose well of bringing a miniscule sample of the cockpit air near the floor for monitoring. Does this make sense to you or anyone else?

Hope this answers more questions than it raises, but that's the nature and fun of thinking things through! Regards. Joe


From: Redƒox Sent: 10/10/2003 12:56 PM
Uh Oh Joe. I got intimidated and ran off when I saw the size of that post

Tell it like it is bro! Really I quit enjoyed that post and I'll be giving this one a think as I'm gone for the next few days.

From: STIMPY'S DAD Sent: 10/10/2003 10:00 PM
RODGER,
THE DICKINSON IS A THING OF BEAUTY.
NO PROBLEMS, NICE HEAT AND WE LOVE THE FIREPLACE IN THE EVENING. STIMPSTER

From: C-ATTL-Angler85 Sent: 10/25/2003 10:33 PM
Joe, Greg, Stimpster, Mike,

I'm still researching, but in the meantime, I took back the catalytic and bought a little "Buddy" propane heater. The catalytic had a slight smell, and my theory is that at the lower temp, the burn is less than optimal. The Buddy works great, I don't smell anything, and lots of heat, has an auto shut-off in case of low oxygen, BUT I tried it in the cabin, and the condensation started forming on the windows in a matter of minutes (it was very dmap out, but still....). I will still give it a try while I'm fishing (or cruising) with the windows open at least, but I can see I really need to get real and vent the exhaust. With that in mind, my biggest concern with the propane is the safetly aspect. Here are my questions:
1) Joe & Greg, do you have a propane tank sitting out in the cockpit? I suppose with some creativity this could be mounted high enough (in the back cubby area on the Angle, vented to the outside via a drain pipe through the back)
2) Have you ever had (or heard of) any leakage problems?
3) If you did leak propane into the cockpit or cabin, how would you get it out?
4) The Force 10 looks like the best alternative for my angler, as I could mount it right on the wall next to the door (like the Fox) and vent up through the roof, or out the side. Is it designed to hold a kettle on top? Can you adjust the heat output?
5) I was also thinking I could provide an opening (Protected on the outside) just below the Force-10 to pull fresh air from the cockpit for combustion. (This could potentially be rigged (with a collection pan) to allow any propane to pass back to the cockpit (where at least this could be drained out the back drain hole when on land.)
6) The Dickenson also looks interesting. Is this also buring propane?
7) Joe, do you use the same propane source for your stove? When camping, I use one of those extention pipes, and run 3 things off my propane tank. I was thinking I could potentially do something similiar to this on the boat also.
8) What about butane? Beyond backpacking stoves, I have only seen one single burner stove, and nothing in the heater world.
9) Assuming I do go with the propane, I will definitely add a detector on the floor of the cabin. Any specific recommendations on a brand, or place to shop.


Thanks in advance for you help. Someday I'll be posting before and after pictures of whatever I come up with. I also picked up some anti-fog gel stuff at the auto parts store today, and will let you know how it works.

Victor




From: C-Wolf1 Sent: 10/26/2003 1:35 AM
Victor-

1. My propane tank sets in the motor well to the port side of the engine, mounted on a painted steel RV bracket attached to the lazarette bulkhead, so that any leaked gas goes out the motor well through the drains and not into the cockpit. I'll get a photo of the set up real soon and post it with the others. It's kept away from any sparks by the motor cowls and well housing.

The gas is heavier than air and will settle in the cockpit or cabin if leaked into there. Many commercial fishing boats put the tank on top of the cabin so that any leaked gas goes overboard from the cabin roof directly into the water. If the tank is put into the cockpit or cabin, it must be put in a vapor proof, sealed compartment with an overboard downward drain tube. Generally , these are very expensive and there really isn't much room for one on a C-Dory anyway.

If you have room in the back of the cabin of your angler for a small tank and can build a custom compartment , I suppose it could be done, but I wouldn't put the tank above and/or anywhere near the heater. They should be separated by as much distance as you can build in to the system. Also, how will the compartment seal well and also opened to recharge the bottle? I'd put it outside on the roof top (away from the exhaust), or elsewhere.

2. I've not had any leakage problems in my first-hand experience, but the few I've heard about in the news and these columns are the ones that get to the final "boom" stage and are quite spectacular as well as fatal.

3. If I had a propane leak into the cabin or cockpit, I'd first extinguish any open flames, turn off all gas valves, depower all electrical equipment from the main battery switch, open all windows, doors, and hatches (without making any sparks), give it a few minutes to dissipate as much as possible with natural wind circulation, and then use a spark proof hand powered makeshift fan, such as a towel, to help dissipate any residual gas.

3. The space on top of the Force 10 Heater will hold a 3"-4" base cup, pot, or whatever, but the object can't flare out to a larger diameter much because of the exhaust tube near the rear. About a 4" cylindrical shape is all that will sit by itself. I added a grill to the rail to more securely hold the pot I'm using. It's a stainless syrup pitcher that is 3" in diameter and about 8" tall. (See the photos). Greg used some eyelets and other hardward to trap a larger teapot on top of the heater by attaching the handle and pouring spout end cap to the builkhead mechanically (see the photo).

Yes, the heater can be adjusted in output. High is 6000 BTU's and low is 3000, but I can turn mine down much lower than 3000, maybe down to about 1000. This is great, because you have to run the heater continuously (no thermostat), so you have to be able to reduce the output to match the heat loss to achieve a constant temperature.

5. Getting air for combustion from outside is a good idea, and a pan for collecting and trapping any leaked gas seems very sensible, but be sure it drains overboard, and not into the cockpit. Any leaked gas must be eliminated or removed immediately, not later when on land. The gas is heavier than air, but not at all like a liquid.

Also, leaks can occur anywhere in the system: any hose, any fitting, valve, etc. That why they want you to have a pressure valve next to the tank to test for leaks with. You turn on the pressure at the tank, then close it. Don't open any valves or appliances. If the pressure stays constant, the system doesn't have any leaks. If the pressure goes down on its own, there's a leak somewhere. Don't use the system until it's found and sealed completely.

The Dickinson apropane Fireplace also burns propane. It uses a co-axial (double walled) tube within a tube to pull fresh air in from outside and eliminate exhaust gases. It's more of a sealed combustion unit, has an internal fan, and has an output range of up to 9000 btu's. I'm not sure if the low end of the output can be adjusted down as low as the Force 10. Stimpy may be able to help us here. The Force 10 is listed at $400 by West Marine, but can be purchased for under $300 on line, and the Dickinson similarly lists for $600 but can be had for a little over $500. Used Force 10's on e-bay usually sell for $140-$190.

I use the same propane bottle for the cooking stove and the heater. The 20-lb bottle goes on for weeks and even months in our climate down here. Each connection/fitting is a potential leak, so make sure they're tight and test them with soapy water. I made all mine "permanent" by mounting all hoses with rubber-grommeted hangers and protected them for chafe where they passed through or nearby objects that could abrade them.

8. Butane and propane are very similar. Butane is a smaller molecule and has a lower freezing point than propane. Propane freeses at a temperature fairly similar to water, and butane freezes about 60 degrees below that. The bulk propane we get from dealers to re-fill bottles is a mixture of propane and butane. If they gave us straight propane, it would freeze up in cold weather, and we would find our heaters and stoves wouldn't work. They mix the two in different proportions depending on the local weather expected and what they've got available.

They're interchangable in heaters and stoves as far as I know. Most of the small disposable propane cylinders are probably also mixtures of both, but I don't know that for a fact.

9. I have a Marine Technologies Saf-T-Alert Propane Detector that cost about $47 plus shipping from an RV outlet in Texas (PPL Motor Homes <www.pplmotorhomes.com>.

I also have a carbon monoxide detector of the same brand from the same supplier at about the same cost. Marine chandleries will want to sell you the complete more sophisticated system with the built in shut off valve actuation system for about $300 or more complete, but I don't feel it's necessary as an 85-db loud alarm and flashing red light can get me to turn the system off quickly. I'm not going to leave it turned on if I'm not around. If you buy the propane locker system all the various alarms, shut offs, valves, and compponents for a regular full-blown large cabin cruiser installation, you'll have over $1000 in the system before you even buy a heater or stove!

This does, though, bring up a point. Your heater will cost you more to install than you probably initially imagine by the time you add an alarm or two, a tank, a regulator, hoses, fittings, mounting hardware, exhaust pipes and fittings, etc. Best to plan on it and not be too surprised.

Hope this answers your questions. Be glad to help more. Joe.

From: Redƒox Sent: 10/26/2003 10:28 PM
Victor. I use an aluminum 5 gallon horizontal LPG tank. It is mounted in my "burger box" (cartop carrier) on the back of my boat. If it ever had a leak, it would drain out into the water through the holes I have drilled in the bottom of the carrier.

I do pretty well with the fancy little pot on top the Force 10. It will take about 45 minutes to bring it to a low boil on it. I don't know if you could say it's made for it or not though, but it sure don't hurt! and I use it all the time to heat my morning coffee water. What also works well is to put the full pot of water on at night, and by morning, it's hot.

I don't tell peep to mount there's like mine though, I confess I did not follow the guidelines for my installation, I figured I could always fix it latter if I detected any fumes, so far in 3 years... maybe 4.. (I forget!) there has not been any problems, with fumes, unless the inside of the pipe gets a little rusty (that's right use stainless)! I just used an old motor cycle crash bar that was sitting in a junk pile in the yard. It had the perfect bend in it already and was about an 1/8 inch too large on the inside diameter. (maybe that's what saved me) because your supposed to run a much longer length of pipe.

I do whole heartedly recommend the force 10, for it's dependability, price and simplicity. Another thing I really like is... (it's super quiet!), just the sound of an average stove top burner, is all you can hear. I see a lot of them Force 10s, mounted in sailboats up here in AK to!
OK lastly I confess. For winter cruising up here in Alaska, I would go with the Dickenson the next time for it's higher heat output. On them days when it never get over freezing, my Force 10 is pretty much going full blast all the time, and my cabin is lined to. Greg

From: C-Wolf1 Sent: 10/28/2003 6:16 PM
Victor- I posted a photo as promised of the propane tank set up on my boat on page 5 of the cabin and interior photos section, since that's where we're posting pictures of heater installations.

By the Way, I got the size of the butane and propane molecules backwards by accident in the last post before Greg's, but the other information is correct as far as I know. Joe.

From: C-ATTL-Angler85 Sent: 10/28/2003 10:28 PM
Thanks guys,

I'm having one of those rough work weeks; hope to catch up this weekend. You've given me lots of ideas. I like the idea of the double walled Dickenson unit to bring in fresh air as well, and mounting the propane tank far away with drainage, and having it to run a stove inside, one of those little BBcues hanging off the side, and even a lantern in the cockpit as well.
VR