Windlass Installation

Islander · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 2:06 pm Post subject: Windlass Installation

I have a 22 foot 1990 Crusier Model. I'm getting ready to install my Simpson Horizon 500 electric anchor windlass. I thought that I would install it using the existing hole in the deck that is off set to the starboard side. All I would have to do is remove the stainless steel cap that is there now and move the the anchor rode off center.

However upon further inspection the stainless steel fixture is glued so good to the deck I don't know how I would get it off to install the anchor windlass over it.

So it looks like it may be best to cut a new hole for the windlass on the center line.

My question is this: I'm a bit concerned about cutting yet another 1.75inch hole up on the deck. Have any of you done this? Thanks in advance!

Da Nag · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 2:41 pm Post subject:

Did it on Da Nag 19 with a Horizon 600 - not a big deal at all. The windlass came with a template that made the cutout a piece of cake. For the oblong hole, there are two round holes on the template you drill out, then cut out the area between them with a jig saw. Just make sure and seal up the edges real well - many folks dig out the balsa core a bit, and fill with marine epoxy. For the smaller holes for the through bolts, I just slathered 5200 in them when installing.

RE off-setting it - if I recall correctly, the Horizon 500 is the predecessor to the 600, correct? If so, I don't see how you could install it off center. It needs to be in-line with your anchor roller.

Also - have you purchased the 500 yet? I'm not certain, but I think that one has the plastic gypsy - most folks here who have chosen a Horizon have gone with the 600. I also thought it had been discontinued...

Sea Wolf · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 2:45 pm Post subject:

Islander- Cutting the hole is easy and shouldn't pose a problem. If it is round, a drill-powered hole saw would be the easiest way to go. The kits with interchangable cylindrical sizes have several sizes in a useful and economical kit form, but if you want to buy just one of the exact 1.75 inch size, those are available too. A Roto-Zip saw will also cut holes like this, but the hole saw is much more precise if the hole is round.

After cutting out the hole, the recommended procedure is to clear out the balsa-core around the hole back about 1/4" to 3/8" with a suitable tool and then fill it in with epoxy (e.g., Marinetex) putty, then re-drill the hole so that you have solid material around the hole and can't get water absorbed back into the balsa wood core. The same procedure would also apply to the other mounting holes that hold the windlass in place.

You're absolutly right about mounting the windlass with the gypsy on the center line, not the windlass body, for correct operation. The existing hawse pipe (rode entry port) is too far off center for much of anything except to provide access to a hand-held remote control for use while on deck, if later determined to be needed.

How does your existing anchor and rode promise to work on the windlass? Will the anchor self-launch off the existing bow roller? There are so many questions posed when making this installation that it's a bit confusing! Hope this helps! Joe.

Islander · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 2:59 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the inputs guys. As for self launching, I don't now if mine will do that yet. My thought was to do the install then see if it self launches.

Did any of you guys have the existing rope deck pipe off to starboard? I currently have that now and it will become useless. Did you leave it in place. My thought was to remove it a put a Sampson post in its place. But...would like to hear what you guys did.

Islander · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:19 pm Post subject:

Da Nag,

The 500 that I just purchased has the metal gypsy. As for it being discontinued that could be the case as I got it from West Marine at a very steep discount 60%.

Sea Wolf · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:29 pm Post subject:

Islander- No, I didn't have the deck pipe already installed.

The Sampson Post sounds like a good idea, as most windlass manufacturers recommend you use some method to take the load off the windlass when at anchor, except that I think it should be on the centerline to be in line with the anchor roller.

In practice, most people just leave the load on the windlass, except when experiencing big loads in wind and swells, or when anchoring overnight when it makes more sense to tie the rode off to a cleat for safety and peace of mind. The 10" stainless cleat that is factory installed on the centerline works well for this, at least for 1/2" rope. An all chain (1/4") rode will only make one pass around this cleat, however.

I'd just seal the opening to the deck pipe off for now with a flexible plastic or rubber sheet/membrane under the metal cap until I later found a use for the existing exit hole.

It might prove useful later for use as an entrance for a temporary electrical cord to bring power aboard the boat at home, for a remote switch for the windlass (to give you control when standing on the deck clearing weeds from the rode), or ? Filling the hole in and matching the color and cross-hatch surface pattern of the non skid would be difficult, at best. Joe.

Cheers · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:47 pm Post subject: Anchoring

When I installed my windless, I simply left the existing deck pipe - won't hurt a thing. If that extra hole bothers you, get an oversized cork & stick it in the hole. But pay attention to the installation instructions - the rode needs to be in a straight line to the gypsy pick up.

Islander · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:12 pm Post subject:

Cheers,

I may very well leave the deck pipe in as well. It has been secured by 5200. Very difficult to unbond.

Thanks for the response.

TyBoo · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 8:15 pm Post subject:

Ain't that something!?! You sign onto our nice little group here, ask a good question, and somebody tells you to stick a cork in it!! Hah!

I am fixing to install a windlass on our boat, which also has the offset hawes pipe. I plan to just leave it alone. I figure it looks better than whatever patch I might put on the hole.

You do want your windlass gypsy right on the centerline of the roller, so the rode will wrap the gypsy properly and not cause problems. The template supplied with the windlass makes it pretty easy.

I had a Horizon 600 on the TyBoo22, and have the same model to put on the TyBoo25. I was very pleased with it, and I am sure you're going to wonder why you didn't get one sooner. The Horizon 500 is, I believe, the same except for a less powerful motor. That's no problem - you'll never use all the pulling power available, and your wiring won't have as big a load to carry. If your anchor gets stuck, you don't want to be using the windlass to jerk it free, anyhow.

That's good that you have the metal gypsy. The plastic ones are OK if you are using mostly rope. The guys who feel they need all chain can tear the plastic ones up pretty quick.

SeaSpray · Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:17 am Post subject:

I am getting ready to install an horizon 600 windlass. Can anyone tell me what size wire they used for this installation on a CD22?

Also, do you connect to the battery terminal or to the battery switch?

Thanks,
Steve

Sneaks · Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:17 am Post subject:

I just finished installing the S/L Sprint 600 and used 8 gauge wire. My dealer used 6 gauge to a 50 amp breaker in the starboard lazarette after the battery switch, and I came off that breaker, running up to the windlass 30 amp breaker I installed forward near the windlass switch. Works great. Got a couple of photos in the "Jenny B" album.

Sea Wolf · Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:11 am Post subject:

Steve-

First, a wire of any reasonable size can carry several hundred amps if shorted out, and result in a fire very quickly. For this reason, authorities reccommend:

1) The cable should be connected to the battery switch, not the battery. Otherwise, the cable up to the circuit breaker on the helm panel would be live at all times.

2) A fuse or circuit breaker should be installed close to the switch for further protection. Since the 600 draws 50 amps at full (calculated) load, an 80 amp fuse/breaker should handle the surges and still provide overload protection.

Secondly, the wire gauge problem is really more one of voltage drop to the motor of the windlass, and less one of heat build up in the wire, as actual use is intermittent and/or infrequent. The voltage drop causes the motor to use excessive amperage, which results in a greater percentage of the energy turning into heat in the motor windings. Too much heat and the solder on the commutator turns quickly into an order for a replacement armature.

There's a nice full page discussion in the West Marine Catalogue (page 660 of the 2004 edition) regarding wire and current loading with tables and a formula for calculating the voltage drop.

With the 25 foot or so round trip from the switch to the motor and back, the chart says to use 2 gauge for totally adequate service, but 2 gauge is full sized automotive battery cable, and seems awfully big at first consideration. Too big to install easily. Too big to look good. Too big to hide. Too much weight. Too much Too much!!!(?)

So I went back to the table and figured how much I thought I could safely downsize. 4 gauge would be ok, maybe even 6, considering the intermittent use and my not planning on using the windlass as a brutal winch to haul up sunken logs, abandoned Bayliners, etc. (It would be interesting to put a ammeter in the circuit and see how the load goes as the windlass is used....probably pulls 20-35 amps most of the time.)

So I went with 6 gauge, and haven't had any problems yet. My Quick Aires pulls 500 watts (42 amps, not 50, calculated, as with the Sprint and Horizon 600's), and I've never opened the circuit breaker. I converted over to 100 feet of 1/4" chain (74 lbs) plus 150 feet of three strand nylon rode, and the extra weight encountered there hasn't been a problem.

One way of dressing up the installation in the V-berth is to use duplex wire from the solenoid forward instead of the individual red and black cables. The double wires are spiral wrapped with a cloth tape then covered with an off-white plastic sheath that hides much better against the v-berth walls. Alternately, you could also just wrap the individual pair with white electrical tape, as the 6 gauge duplex is $5.29 a foot at WM. Incidently, the various types of cable can be purchased new at about half West Marine cost from vaious sources on ebay.

That's about it for now, was nice meeting you and your folks at Lake Shasta. Joe.

SeaSpray · Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:42 pm Post subject:

Thanks guys for the info!

I went ahead and ordered some size 8 duplex wire online today. I think I got a good deal - about $1.60/ft. Had to buy 50ft.

Joe - Good info about not connecting directly to the battery. Had not thought of that. When I get it hooked up I will chek to see if it is getting hot after use.

Now I need to find some time when it is not raining so I can install it.

Steve

Sneaks · Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:53 am Post subject:

Some more hints:

I went to Jab-Tech and ordered some of that black fiberglass wire sleeving similar to what C-Dory uses to encase their wiring runs. Also ran single wire #8 red and yellow wires from the battery/ breaker to where I put the windlass breaker, with the yellow wire basically wired to parallel the factory #10 black negative wire and the red directly to the windlass breaker. A short jumper to the windlass switch from the breaker and the ground run completed the input wiring to the switch.

Then I ran Duplex #8 from the switch to the smallest Radio Shack project box I could find, drilling out wire access at both ends. The project boxes and covers are all plastic - no rust. Made the windlass connections inside the box.

That "chinese finger puzzle" expandable fiberglass sleeving is wonderful. Great protection, and the 1/2" stuff will easily pass 3/4" connectors through before "skinnying up"again. I also used it to run all the wires from the top electronic shelf radio, GPS, and radar down parallel to the factory run. Just had to replace the 1/2" wire clamps with 3/4". Everything that went from behind the dash back to the battery location was encased in it.

Also think about adding battery charger wires from under the Wallas area to the batteries and maybe an extra wire or two for a rear bilge pump switch inside the same sleeve for future use.

Sea Wolf · Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:04 am Post subject:

Don- Good ideas! I really like the professional looks of your wiring installation in the v-berth, using automotive/industrial two-sided tape to hold the duplex wire to the ceiling prior to caulking it for a final fix. I assume the appearance after the caulking job looks fine as well. The project box cleans up the splice nicely!

One additional benefit of running some serious gauge wire up to the helm electrical panel is that a battery charger can then be mounted there with the power of the charge easily running back through the heavier gauge wire, although the 10 gauge can handle up to 20 amps of current, according to the charts/recommendations. Nice to get the charger out of the rear of the boat (damp, salt air, gas vapors), and not under the sink (very valuable storage space according to my wife), or other cabin storage space, which is at a premium. I've placed my charger up there along the starboard hull wall and like it up there out of the way with the rest of the electrical spaghetti factory just fine.

Another unanticipated benefit came when I decided to add two more batteries to my boat to provide plenty of amp-hour reserve to power an engine mounted trolling motor. The motor mounts on the top rear of the cavitation plate, draws up to 36 amps for up to 44 lbs of thrust, and was chosen to provide quiet trolling for trout in lakes at speeds below 1.7 mph, which is the minimum the main motor will troll. (I decided for my purposes and uses this would be a better set up than a kicker motor and/or a trolling plate, since I do most of my fishing/cruising on inland lakes.)

So where to put two more group 27 deep cycle marine batteries? The stern area is full, and I don't want them on the floor of the cockpit. The best place to hide them and balance (offset) my weight at the helm would be under the front dinette seat, sacrificing some of that precious storage space. The next problem is how to hook them into the main power trunk. Rather than go back along the port side of the boat to the rear under the gun whale, I'm just going to tie them into the 6 gauge lines on the starboard side at the helm station installed for the windlass. I'm adding a off/1/both/2 switch so that I can use either or both of them to boost the existing rear battery set, or substitute entirely for them. The result of this is that I have four 105 amp-hour batteries that can be used or charged in any combination, individually, or together. Glad I used 6 gauge, if I could have foreseen this development, would have used 4 from the helm back to the rear batteries.

My only concern now is that I'm going to check the voltage drop when starting the engine on the front batteries, as I don't want to strain/overheat the starter motor. When I finish the project, I'll post some photos in my album and relate the rest of the developments and how it works out in usage. The extra forward weight of the batteries forward should help the ride in chop as a side benefit to also balancing the weight distribution on the boat. More later, Going up to Eagle Lake to visit the trout for a few days in the freezing cold. Joe.