Air Conditioning

williamsburg · Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject: Air Conditioning

Much of our boating on the CD-22 consists of staying overnight in marinas, gernerally traveling with 3 or 4 other boats. Here in Tidewater Virginia the heat and humidity combined with our age and infirmity makes air conditioning a necessity in July, August, and September. We finally took the step but I am not completely satisfied with our decision. The choices we knew of were:
Marine Air Condit - These are efficient units and are out of sight. They are expensive ($1500 for 6500 BTU), require two thru-hulls and you loose a cabinet. Since the hull shape requires that the intake thru-hull is just below the water line it attracts junk - especially jelly fish in our area. The water intake is often clogged - at least for my fellow C-Dory owners.
Camper Top Air Condit - They are efficient, relatively inexpensive, and do the job. But the lines of the CD-22 are so pretty and this really changes the looks. Also there is the problem of the condensate dripping off the top and the units are not made to withstand the rigors of salt air.
Hatch Insert (Cruisair Carry-On) - These seem to work well in cooling the cabin. They are expensive ($700+). They are a storage problem, 30+ inches in greatest dimension. The difficulty of handling the 60 lb. unit on the foredeck caused us to rule out this unit.
Stand Alone Portable Air Conditioner - This is what I finally choose (Soleus 8000 BTU) about $400 from Staples including shipping. This unit measures 12.75"wide, 16" deep, and 31.5 high. If you remove the casters and use 3/4" feet it will fit under the table top. I removed the table leg and use the unit as the support. It is easily vented using the supplied kit through the port sliding window. The table and seats are still usable. Now the problems - By nature the portable air conditioners are very inefficient. First they themselves are heat generators, especially the vent tubing. Since they use the inside air to cool the compressor, cold air is removed and sent out thru the vent tubing. This creates a vacuum in the cabin sucking hot outside air in. During the heat of a sunny day cooling is minimal (3 or 4 degrees) but the humidity is decreased. At night it cools the boat nicely. There is no thermostat so you can get too cold and have to turn it to fan manually. Finally we have had problems getting rid of the condensate - severaly gallons a day. There is a drain to which you connect 1/2" tubing and can drain into the bildge pump area. But the unit is very sensitive to leveling and can pour alot of water into the cabin. We have made a drain pan from a plastic basket and this works fine.
Will take some photos next time I'm at the boat if anyone is interested.
Drink Heavily - May be the best device to get to sleep in the heat and humidity

Steven Dore · Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:58 pm Post subject:

I am also considering the portable unit. I did find a portable a Home Depot for $299 with the same BTU and dimensions. I had also figured on placing the unit under the table, so I would be very interested in seeing your pictures.

Thanks for the heads up on the condensation issue. I had considered running a drain line to the bilge sump, but had not considered the leveling issue. I figured if it was tightly connected then it would similar to any plumbing connection.

Steve

JamesTXSD · Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:40 pm Post subject:

I'd be interested in seeing photos of this unit, too. Really thinking hard on the airconditioning solution... driving across west Texas on our way to the NW, it was 102º today. If we are to use this as our camper when towing, some kind of a/c is going to be necessary!

Sea Wolf · Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:57 pm Post subject:

What someone needs to do is to find a way to camoflage small (~6500 btu) RV type AC unit on the roof, so as to take advantage of the RV AC's more efficiennt functioning, basic low cost (~$500-$600), and, at the same time, save the cabin space due to the roof placement (rear half).

How about a cleverly designed shroud around it looking much like a swept back smokestack or cabin extension/ 2nd deck? Maybe with a ring or two around it to dress it up? I'm sure it could be done. Anyone have a graphics design program to play with a line drawing or photograph of a CD???

On Edit: Be sure to allow room around the shroud for air flow into and out of the AC unit!

Also: the unit that would probably be used, the Coleman Polar Cub, really isn't that ugly at all, but could probably be camoflaged into something that would enhance the boat's appearance instead of looking slightly out of place!

Joe.

Sea Wolf · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:51 am Post subject:

Still another thought: Perhaps the AC unit could be sort of "hidden" under a radar arch with a lot of other functional "distractions" (equipment) that would hide it somewhat?

Next problem (ongoing): Where will be hide the generator?

Joe

Sneaks · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:16 am Post subject:

Alok · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:31 am Post subject:

We really need to find some good air conditioning solutions (Jeff: hint...hint).

Charlie and I are strongly considering putting a 13,500 BTU Coleman Seamach marinized rooftop unit on our TC 255. Yes, it does interfere with the sleek lines of the Tomcat but I did not want to put in a true raw-water cooled marine unit that would require a thru-hull with a seacock. Cost was also a factor.

We had considered hiding the Coleman under the radar arch, but I was told that the unit spits out cold air front and back so it needs to be placed in the middle of the cabin roof for best efficiency. I'll probably bolt on a couple of small swept-back airplane wings- or a spoiler- to it to make it look cool Smile

The rooftop unit also needs lines for the condensate to drain near a cockpit scupper, otherwise it runs down the side of the cabin.

We are hoping to be able to run the Coleman with a Yamaha 2800 portable generator. This only weighs 64 lbs as compared to the Honda 3000, which weighs 134 lbs. Anyone on the list have experience with the Yamaha?

Byrdman · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:56 am Post subject:

Having just seen one of the Duo-Therm AC units mounted on the roof of a CD22, it did not look bad at all....particulary if you are the one attempting to get some rest on the boat. Actually, the height ratio of the thing kinda "fit" the natural lines of the boat in the water.

Advantages: Tuff units, made to handle the ruff rides on our interstate systems when traveling, just like the campers and tent trailers traveling today, and they camp right on the coast in the salt air. Also the cost is about 1/3 of a true marine AC unit alone...prior to the labor, thru hull holes for water supply and condensation tubes, and duct work. So what if it only last 3 seasons... toss the sucker in your favorite fishing hole and let the fish school around it. Smarter fish then. Mr. Green

Now, all my tree hugging enviormentalist just beat me up bad... just kidding. but you can toss it and replace it about 3 times for the same initial cost of the true marine units...with way fewer holes in your boat. You can use it on the road, in the camp grounds too. The marine you can not. Yes, the condensation draining off the top is an issue...but just how big of one? What happens when it rains? What happens in the morning dew or fog? Water is all the time moving about on the boat. Many little things can be put on the boat to "direct" the water flow. Many have a "gutter" for the canvas top that would keep it from draining into the cockpit area. Anyone tried the little plastic car window shield things over their boat windows??? These would also let you keep your windows cracked a bit in a light rain... As for where do you put the please still me generator as to allow you to run it while on the hook? I do not know. I kinda like the idea of a "polling platform" like the flats boats use. Could easily build some type of fold up starboard material "box" to put over it when you dock that could easily be locked up. Jeff at C-Dory about had a duck when I asked him about removing some of the foam in the front V-Berth area as to allow for a true marine AC unit to be mounted with duct work ran from the factory. I think that would be a great idea...but....Jeff and Scott run the factory. They simply did not want to complicate the flow of boats coming off the line. But, it is great to see that I am not the only one who really would like AC on these CRUISING boats. Some of us do not have the time to just move to a section of America when it gets hot.... and...if we are truly going to boat 12 months out of the year....we gotta have AC not only for the temp/humidity, but for the insects too.

Interesting numbers on the weight of the Yamaha genset. No personal use of one, but they for sure build great products. And, keeping it light enough to just grab and take on shore to the beach under the sun tent with a fan is also a great advantage of the smaller gen sets.

Byrdman

drjohn71a · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:24 am Post subject:

I had a Coleman slo start 13,500 Btu roof air unit on my old, small houseboat. Yes the cold air does come front and back, but mine was mounted about as far forward as you could get and still worked fine. Since most time was spent at the helm,and since most heat came in thru the front windows, the extra cool air flow up front was a bit of a blessing to my thinking.

So, I would mount the unit somewhat forward of center for better cooling where you need it and better balance.

In KS, OK, AR, TX, etc., High 90's to 100's are common summer temps and that 13,500 Btu's could not keep up on many hot, mid-afternoons. I don't think a wimpy 7-8,000 Btu unit would do much good in these ultra high heat situatiions.

John

jimcinfra · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:09 pm Post subject:

I have very limited experience with a/c on a C-22 (one trip). We have a "wimpy" Duo Therm 7100. I agree that it will not do much good in the middle of the day @ 100 degrees, but at night it did a good job of cooling down and dehumitifying the hot, muggy Florida air.
We put the Honda2000EU generator in the cockpit, but found out that because the cockpit is shielded from the breeze at anchor, there is a lot of stale air that accumulates in the cockpit. We will try to find a better place for the generator so that it catches more of the breeze to dispurse the exhaust fumes. We have a CO monitor in the cabin to warn us of any dangers.

williamsburg · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject: Air Conditioning

Thanks to everyone for their comments. Tomorrow the temperature prediction is 103 so this is a timely discussion. I plan to take photos tomorrow and have them available on Wednesday morning - window vent, condensation pan, and unit under table. Also I will give my method for fitting the window vent since it was a trial and error thing.

Byrdman · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject:

Hey Jim!!! Do you have any photos of your boat with the AC unit on it? I thought it looked nice...particuarly if your down here with us dripping hot...and attempting to get a good nights rest. Yes, I thought running in the cockpit would be a quality air issue...and think that maybe some type of bungie set up at least to mount it up on one of the back lazzeretts....or even some type of rig like the flats boats use to stand on for polling the boat. But...if ya gonna enjoy travel on the water down here these months... ya gonna have to have air.... also....keeps the critters out good too.

Just saw in the new Campers World catalog a "high effeciency" 13,500 unit that needs 10 amps.... looks good.

Byrdman · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:34 pm Post subject:

Williamsburg.... looking forward to your photos...but, I did not see your photo album on your profile...?? Have ya requested one be set one up yet?

Alok · Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:58 am Post subject:

With my apologies to Byrdman, I have posted a similar message on the "generator question" thread, but thought that it might be useful to have it on this thread too. I really want to get this A/C issue solved!

On the other thread, Byrdman had asked whether the Honda 2000 will run the Duotherm 13,500 BTU rooftop unit that requires only 10 running amps...

The problem is, the starting load on these A/Cs is higher than the running load, and it's the starting load that is critical.

The Duotherm 13,500 unit appears to have a slightly lower amperage requirement than the marinized Coleman 13,500 unit, and the Honda 2000 may be able to handle it. However, there is a second consideration. Even if the Honda 2000 starts the A/C, the generator cannot then be switched to the econothrottle mode. It will have to run at "full" mode with a concomitant increase in noise and reduction in the number of hours a tank of gas will last.

Let me stress that I am no expert...this is just information that I have picked up on my travels down this road. If someone can demonstrate that a 13,500 BTU rooftop unit will run reliably with a Honda 2000, I will be a very happy man!
_________________

Byrdman · Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:12 am Post subject:

Now... I want to point out that I see two... (2) differant 13,500 AC units. One list 14.6 amps, (non-high efficiency) and the other, which looks better for our planned applications, that takes 10 amps.

Now I am not sure what kind of increase in noise that is above....but it does not look like a plesant one to me... Mr. Green

They don't use that word in my neighborhood....but I might try it after I look it up and just be sure Mr. Webster indicates that it has nothing to do with family history or anything like that.

Don't know the start up amps of either of these two units. Will try to find a spec sheet on both of them. Yep, it will run the gen set hard. Yep, it will burn more fuel hard....and I see the Honda 2000i has a small fuel tank, and might only run 2-3 hours "loaded" down. That is what had me poking about for some possible other, still carry-able gen sets, that might have a larger fuel capacity, hence allowing a bit longer sleep period, and at the same time put out a few more amps. I found Yamaha has both a 2400 and a 2600......but....they are in the 70 pound range instead of the 43 pound range. That makes a large differance when you are moving it about on/off/around the boat...when it is not on a solid floor, but a floor that moves with the water. But... that 70 pounds is still lighter than some kicker folks are hanging off the aft end of our C-Dory boats...and, I need AC much more than a kicker. Maybe mount it on some type of polling platform that the flats fisherman use....with some type of box-in feature to cover it when away from the boat on cruises at the docks. Too easy like mentioned elsewhere for these bright red "steal me" color items...and the blue aint no better... so, we have more to do.

I have received email from a C-Dory owning, RV traveling friend that indicates that in the lower altitudes, his 2000i ran the fire out of a 13,500 AC unit for RVs, but he was not sure of the amps....could have been the 10 amp unit...or could have and might have been the 14.6 amp unit if the high efficiency unit is something new...???

So....let's dig a little deeper....and thanks to all for your input, help, and research time.

Byrdman...enjoying the 3rd day in a row of heat indexes pushing 110. CoolSmile