Olympia Washington to Lewiston Idaho trip

oldgrowth · Last edited by oldgrowth on Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:45 am; edited 1 time in total

This thread is an off shoot from the following thread about gas tanks and an answer to the following.

Leo Smith · Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:52 am Post subject:

Hi Dave,
Your trip should be quite an adventure. I have wanted to make a similar trip, but I figured it would be going "downhill" riding the mighty Columbia to Astoria. Having grown up boating on the Columbia, I would like to offer some thoughts. Depending upon the time of year you choose to travel, you should be prepared for a very healthy chop in the afternoons upriver from Bonneville Dam. This may result in fewer miles traveled than your estimate. If you haven't read it yet, you should read the last 52 pages of RIVER HORSE by William Least Heat-Moon. A link to this book and the author is on the C-Dory factory web site. I have been following your boat projects and am very impresed with how your 16' C-dory is evolving into a long-range cruiser.
Best regards,
Leo

rogerbum · Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:10 pm Post subject:

Sounds like a cool trip but I hope you have plenty of extra time allocated. At present, the schedule seems a bit optimistic and aggressive. On day 2, you have a planned 184 miles going not only all the way down the Strait of Juan De Fuca but around the point and down to West Port. I'm not convinced that's doable. The wind usually is out of the west so you will be running upwind going west down the straits and depending on the swells (as you get farther west there can be big swells) up swells. I've been in 8-10' swells at Sekiu a number of times. Even without big swells, I'd be surprised if you can average more than 12kts going west on the strait especially in a 16' and if the wind is up a bit, 6-8kts. There are also many times that I would not consider going out at all on the strait in even a much larger boat. At 6-8kts., the Pt. Angles to Neah Bay leg (roughly 54nm) would be 7-8hr trip at 12 kts, you're still looking at 4-5hrs. Personally, I'd put in a stop at Neah Bay, at least for re-fueling but would probably plan on staying the night. The marina's very well protected and any other supplies you need are readily available. Since slack tide only rolls around once every 6 hours or so and you really want to cross the bar at Westport (or even grays harbor) at slack, a stop at Neah Bay might be necessary to get the proper timing for your arrival south.

The next leg of the journey is what worries me the most - Neah Bay to Westport. Other than La Push, there are very few places to tuck in between Neah Bay and Grays Harbor, the swells and wind waves are frequently too large for safe travel in a 16' boat and the fog can get very bad on the coast. This stretch of water could make the high wind days you had on Lake Chelan look like a picnic. I was out past Tatoosh several times this past summer in my 22' and the number of days where I would feel really comfortable in a 16' out there is probably 1 in 3-5. Now I have to admit that I am perhaps a little more wary than the average guy and that I usually judge water by how happy I'll be fishing in it not by whether I can safely traverse it (for me the usually reason to traverse it IS to fish it!).

Fog can also roll in very quickly out there - even midday on beautiful summer days - and shipping/ trawler fishing traffic is fairly high a little off the coast. I don't have radar and I didn't notice one on your boat either. That's another factor that goes into my 1 good day in 3 to 5 estimate. We were fishing out there one day this past summer with several miles of visibility on a beautiful day and we were fully enveloped in very thick fog within 15 mins. I've navigated plenty in thick fog with just the GPS (I have two on board at all times) but I don't like to do so in areas in which there's a lot of freighter traffic. Hence, you may need to spend a few days at Neah Bay to get the right weather for the trip to Westport and it would be good to have a contingency plan that allows you to bag the trip at Neah Bay and trailer home from there. The worst thing that could happen is that you push you decision to travel off shore to hit some pre-determined schedule. That often gets boaters (and private pilots) into big trouble.

Also, you might want to look at the NW swell watch plots at wetsands.com prior to leaving Port Angeles. They provide predictions of the near shore swells for 7 days. Hence, if you check these at Port Angeles and things look really bad for the next 5 days, you could perhaps change you plans to a trip up the west side of Whidbey, through the San Juans, hit Bellingham,come down the Swinomish channel, hit Everett and return to Olympia. Something like that might be a good contingency trip as almost all of that is doable in a 16 on almost all days.

If you have a good weather window for the Neah Bay to Westport leg (about 120miles +/- a bit), I'd assume an average speed of 12kt's for travel planning and a contingency of 6-8kts. Hence, I'd assume that this leg of the trip will take at least 10 hrs but could, in bad conditions, take 15-20 hours and in optimal conditions 5-6 hrs. In great conditions, if you leave really early from Neah Bay, and if you time the trip appropriately, you will get two shots at the bar in daylight. However, it's possible that you will get only one shot at it in daylight. I'd try to plan my trip for sometime in the summer when there is slack mid afternoon and early evening (say 2PM and 8PM). That way a 5AM departure from Neah Bay and relatively calm water could get you there for the 2PM crossing and if you miss that, it would still be light out at 8PM. Also note that your fuel mileage will go down considerably when you spend a lot of time zig-zagging to stay quarter to swells that are coming across the primary direction of travel and that 10 hours of fighting pounding waves and swells can make a guy (or gal) very tired. Your judgement probably won't be as good at the end of the day as it was at the beginning, so having some extra time is a good thing.

Maybe others out there - especially those out of Westport, Grays Harbor, Neah Bay or La Push - can say what fraction of the days in the summer they would feel safe in a 16' angler (call it 18' with the extension). On the coast 1/2 way between La Push and Neah Bay or 1/2 way between La Push and Westport. At this point in my boating career, I probably wouldn't attempt this trip in my 22 and would not do it at all in a 16. Am I too conservative?

Sea Wolf · Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject:

Roger- Very good analysis!

Dave- I read your plan this morning about 2-3 am and was struck by your ambitious plans and schedule. Decided to sleep on my desire to comment on it at the time. With my limited ocean experience, I'd not attempt the ocean part and start at Astoria. Cluck, Cluck, Cluck,.... just call me Chicken Little 22.

The Columbia part of the trip sounds like a lot of fun, although my knowledge of the river is very limited.

Joe.

DAVEY5205 · Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: portable heater

hi dave
was looking at your pics noticed your portable heater. was wondering when you use it where do you actually place it. we want to do something like that on our 16 ft angler, dont think we will need a very big heater just to take the chill out. any suggestions?

Leo Smith · Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject:

Hi Dave,
I also forgot to mention that El and Bill have a great article on the Columbia River on their Halcyon Days site. Bill also alludes to the strong winds on the river. The other consideration for traveling on the Columbia is that commercial traffic (tugs and barges) have priority over pleasure boats in using the locks. It is not unrealistic to figure a waiting time of several hours to use the locks, depending upon your timing. Between the wind and the locks, I would budget a few extra days for the Columbia River and Snake River. You may want to factor in some time to stop and enjoy the poking around Cathlamet, St. Helens, or Hood River. You might even want to drop anchor and catch some rays and volleyball at the beach at Rooster Rock State Park! (bring plenty of sunscreen)
Leo

CAVU · Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject:

Dave,
I was the one who asked you to post your trip plans. I have extensive fishing experience off the west coast of Vancouver Island. I would guess that the average water conditions would be identical to those offshore of the Washington coast. I would concur with Roger that "doable" travel conditions during summer months are no better than 1 day out of 5 and I don't recall ever seeing more than 2 in a row! Weather systems move through too fast. That being said I still think you could do the trip if you have plenty of time and, especially, patience. I am retired and if I were doing the trip, I would wait for a weather window at Neah Bay so I could fish while I am waiting. If the salmon fishing were good I could spend two weeks waiting and still consider it a fine trip. Good Luck.

Sea Wolf · Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:23 pm Post subject:

Dave- I'd like to hear what Dusty has to say about this with all his years of experience in this area, especially having served as a charter boat captain out of Westport, if I remember right, from the discussion of re-entering the harbor at Depoe Bay, which could well reflect the kind of conditions you might encounter.

I've always thought of the C-Dorys as great day fisherman style boats, useful for day fishing in the Sound, or useful for running out into the ocean over a bar, fishing for the day (or until the weather dictates otherwise), and then to returning to safe harbor.

I've never really thought of them as a coastal cruiser type boat capable of running up and down the coast comfortably where you are away from shelter for considerable periods. But then, I'm not that experienced in that type of travel in a small power boat, either.

I have been a much larger sailboat off the coast, however, and very glad we had at least 35 or more feet of very seaworthy vessel under us when the weather turned bad.

Joe.

oldgrowth · Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:29 pm Post subject:

Gentlemen – so much good information, I don’ know where to start in thanking you. Most of it I have already considered and am aware of. I have to admit the one thing I give hardly any thought to was fog. I figured the two hardest parts of the trip would be once I pass Neah Bay and round the point heading South, along the coast line to Westport. And of course the other part that I have some concern about is the Columbia Bar.

My trip would be in August of next year, so I have lots of planning time. I will be boating on different parts of the route this year and next year before the trip. I would like to cross the Columbia Bar at least once before my trip and I will be doing a bit of boating on the Columbia above the Bonneville Dam. I am already very familiar with the conditions on the Columbia between Longview and the Tri Cities. I traveled that route by road more than a hundred of times. The part between Longview and The Dalles I have probably traveled a thousand times.

I have been studying the wave height, wind velocity & direction, temperature, dew point and general weather pattern on the NOAA site so I would have a better idea of what to expect. On the left column under forecast, I check Digital Forecasts, Model Forecasts, and Marine. These seem to give me the best understandable weather and forecast. I know that the weather has to be good for the Pacific leg of this trip. I wont attempt it, if there is not at least a three day window of good weather forecasted, for the Pacific portion.

I will be looking forward to Dusty’s comments.

Ken – I know you were the one requesting more info on my trip. I am glad you did. I have gotten a lot of valuable information from the C-Brats and am sure I will get more. I really like the photos of your cruise to the Toba wilderness. I like people that let us know what we are looking at in their photo album.
Joe- Your photo album is one of the best for knowing what you are looking at. Good information.
Roger – Good info in your photo albums also and as always good information from you.

Some one wanting to get ideas about boat modification should check out the photo albums of the three you.

Leo – Thanks for reminding me of the River Horse and about Bill & Ell. I have read parts of both, will re-read both before my trip. Fortunately I am able to do much of my work remotely so I may take more time for on trip. What part of West Seattle do you live in? I lived there from 1955 to 1970. The 3700 block of SW Cloverdale St & then 63rd and Alki Ave.

oldgrowth · Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject:

DAVY5205 – I wanted to answer your question on a different post than the one about my trip. Was afraid it would get lost there. I use my heater only when I have the camper back canvas on. Then the heater is placed in the middle of the deck between and behind the seats facing forward. I only use it when docked or anchored. If you put a fan on it as I did, make sure it is blowing on the back of the converter, not on the front. The angle in my photo is about right. As Joe (Sea Wolf) pointed out in another thread you can cool down the catalytic converter by blowing on it and not get complete combustion, which can cause carbon monoxide fumes.

rogerbum · Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:47 pm Post subject:

Dave,

Just took a quick look at predict tides at the entrance to the Columbia in Aug 2007. Aug 7th and 8th look like good days with very small tidal changes in the aft-though evening - see this link for a plot on August 8th 2007. The forward and backward buttons will let you look at tides on other days around that time. I looked around a little for historical data on waves - it would be cool to know what the average wave heights were in past August days. I could find lots of data on temps and rain for free but the only thing I could find for historical wave data is commercial at Buoyweather.com. The sign up is $29.95/year but they will give you a free trial for 30 days - cancel within 30 days and you won't get charged. From their site, it appears you can get 8 years of historical buoy data. There are a number of buoys between Neah Bay and Westport. You might want to do a free trial to find out what a typical August day looks like. That will give you a better sense of whether my one good day in 3-5 estimate is too pessimistic.

Roger

lloyds · Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:36 pm Post subject:

I have done a similar trip many times over the years and feel that the leg from Neah Bay to Westport is probably the ugliest piece of water and coastline on the west coast. If you get out there and in a committed situation La Push is your only alternative, and theQuilliaute Needles are a real problem, as that area is foggy at least part of almost every day. It wasn't too many years ago that 3 Coastguardsmen lost there boat on the last rock near the jetty and died. I have had to sail in there in the fog, without an engine. It took all night to find the path and daylight didn't make it any easier. The opening is about 100 yards wide with rocks and shoals on one side, jetty on the other, and tribal nets wherever. I did it with a Garmin 45, a chartplotter would make it a whole lot easier. I would rather cross the columbia bar than try to find La Push. If you missed the window at the columbia you could maybe pick up a freighter and follow it in. Or the pilot boat. I had to lay to behind the pilot boat one time when I missed the flood. This trip sounds like a lot of fun, but it is also very iffy. The run from Neah Bay to Westport will take a miracle to get all the pieces to fall together right. I have been stuck in Westport for 5 days waiting for a weather window. Even then the window turned out to be just a crack and I had to return to port in the middle of the night. I would have to consider radar just about a must on this trip. I have never owned radar but will before I try these areas again. Getting too old to scare myself and family like that.

oldgrowth · Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:09 am Post subject:

Roger – thanks for the link to the predicted tide changes. I created a spreadsheet to paste the information into and I get the following Table. This table is a htm version of my spreadsheet so you can see what it looks like. I can copy any month, paste it into the spreadsheet and get an instant copy of the month. I formatted the tide change column so the changes of 2' or less will automatically be highlighted. As you can see it looks like there is a good window from the 20th through the 24th of August. The links for the dates also work so I can compare the graph with my information.

Lloyds - thank you for your information. I looked at aerial photos of the coast and it does look a little rough along most of it north of Copalis Beach. The farther north the worse it looks.

rogerbum · Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:45 am Post subject:

iggy · Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject:

Just back from Spring Training (Phoenix) - catching up on messages.

From Portland we are beginning long-term plans for Inside Passage. When I say long term I mean we are just taking the USPS intro course and have yet to buy a boat (any boat). This has led me to the C-Dory as an ideal 'trainer" in anticipation of a future trawler. But as Iwe all know, there are many opportunities with a C-Dory that disappear with a larger trawler, so we will be evaluating the whole strategy as time goes on.

Anyhoo, to prepare/learn for the Inside Passage, one 'training' idea that came to mind was up-down Columbia R., Portland - Tri-City - Lewiston - Tri-City - Portland - Astoria - Portland.

Little did I realize this is almost 1,000 miles (!), perhaps as far as an abbreviated Alaska trip itself (starting from Seattle or Anacortes).

As I research this idea I have become more intrigued with it. Geology! Lewis and Clark! Native American culture and history! Family history! (OR trail pioneers, then Walla Walla, WA and Kamiah, ID pioneers.)

There is a great deal to see and do, and I'm looking forward to it.

To each his own, obviously, but I'd find such a trip much more fulfilling at a slower pace. I realize trawlers are restricted to slower speeds, but C-Dory's are not 'restricted' to higher speeds! This is not a cigarette boat race to the Bahama's! Wink

I have been very interested in the discussion so far, and I'm sure there will be much more of interest as this unfolds. I believe the entire Columbia/Snake area is vastly under appreciated, but as I said, I'm speaking from land at the moment, not from the water.

I'll close with a saying we picked up in Tahiti 30 years ago.

"Why so hurry?"

This saying applied to impatient diners. Why do you need the check so fast? You're just going to go out and lie in the sun (again) anyway . . .

Or waiting for the bus (le truck; which BTW might or might not arrive at all).

Or snorkeling off the beach. The equipment is free . . . always available . . . the fish will still be there . . .

For example: At Bora Bora we walked into the water from our private thatched cabin, drifted in the 1-2 kt current gently around the point of the hotel grounds in about 20' of crystal clear water. Coral formations, hundreds (thousands?) of fish . . . This took about 90 minutes. Get out of the water on the other side of the point, walk back to cabin, passing outdoor bar -- (gin and tonic on the way). Rest. Repeat . . .

I digress . . .

But the thought remains - Why so hurry?

e.g.