Looking for negative feedback on my helm design

[pcg]

I’ve had plenty of time to think through the helm design for my 22’ Cruiser restoration and would like to offer it up for criticism before I start modifying the fiberglass at the helm. Keep in mind that I’m an engineering nerd so there will likely be things about this design you don’t like and that’s expected. However, I’m looking for mistakes, or things I’ve overlooked. I’m new to this and I very much value the opinions of the experienced C-Dory captains here.

Referring to the photos below, the first photo shows the complete helm, but somewhere along the way it gets resized so that it's not possible to read switch labels. To remedy this I broke the drawing into upper and lower portions, and hopefully the switch labels are readable if you zoom in.

Navigation and steering aids are on top, beginning with Garmin chart plotter that sits on top of the helm, with room for an iPad to the right. Above the steering wheel, from left to right, are the autopilot display, a small display for engine gauges (can be an iPhone running an app), a simple depth gauge, and a controller for Dometic trim tabs. Below and to the right of the trim tab controller is a 12V outlet (can hold two USB ports) and the cable for the wired windlass remote.

Non-navigation items on lower left are the heater thermostat, and ON/Off switches for the propane solenoid, heater, fridge, fresh water pump, wash down pump, and a switch reserved for future use (maybe a watermaker).

Non-navigation items on lower right are the controls and breakers for the AC circuitry. Below that are breakers controlling items that need to be turned off in the event of a BMS alarm (house batteries are LiFePO4). In the event of a BMS alarm (which sounds 30 sec before the house batteries shut down) the solar panels and DC charger need to be disconnected and all devices normally powered by the house battery are switched to the start battery.

Non-navigation items to the right of the AC circuitry panels are DC on/off switches for the horn, wipers, radios/AIS, chart plotter, radar, autopilot, trim tabs, nav lights, bow light, windlass, security alarm, and bilge pumps.

Also, I know many of you don't like propane, or prefer trim tabs other than Dometic, or think a BMS alarm is overkill, or whatever. That's fine, but that's water under the bridge and not what this post is about. I'm interested in feedback on my helm design.

I know this is a LOT to ask and most of you are probably rolling your eyes at my request, but for those of you with time on your hands who like to find something wrong with someone else’s design, please fire away. I thrive on negative feedback!

What would you change? What have I missed? Thank you!

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[ssobol]

Ok, I'll go first.

The depth can be displayed on the chartplotter (usually in a number of different ways). Unless you have two depth finding systems, the information on both displays will be the same. IMO, having the chart and the depth in a single view is preferred.

Nowadays most engines provide data to the NMEA bus. This allows engine info to be displayed on the chartplotter. You can have a separate page with all the info, or you can overlay particular engine parameters on other pages (as many as you want). BTW, how is the iPhone going to get the engine info?

From the switch set up, it looks like you can't run both left and right wipers at the same time. I found that having a momentary switch that cycles the wiper as long as the switch is depressed (or can cycle once) to be much more handy than the main wiper switches. In my case, there is a momentary double pole switch that can be reached while still holding the wheel (just stretch a finger out).

You should have a auto position for the bilge pump as well as manual on.

My boat has a power switch for the NMEA 2000 bus. This is handy when you want to save power and you switch the bus off when starting with low battery power (bus voltage sag). This can hard reset the bus equipment and lose the settings, having the bus off before starting prevents this.

The Garmin unit has a power switch right on the front bezel. A separate switch is redundant. Realize that the chartplotter is a computer and shutting off the power at the panel switch will not allow it to do an orderly shutdown. You will still need to use the switch on the bezel to operate the unit.

Personally I want only stuff related to driving/navigating the boat on the helm. The switches for house stuff and battery control are located elsewhere. In the diagrams presented I would put the whole panel shown under the heater thermostat somewhere else. If the temp sensor is located in the heater thermostat unit and is not just the control, I would put it somewhere else. Same goes for the AC circuits panel. That's a panel that is not operated very frequently when driving the boat.

Tall switch panels mean that the lower switches start getting pretty low on the helm. This make them hard to see and the legends difficult to read. You might want to split the large panel on the right side into two smaller ones so the switches don't get too low. Also, some sort of panel and/or legend lighting is in order. Also, if you have longer legs you may find that some of the lower down switches can be accidently actuated by your knees.

If the 12V thing is a plug, consider what things you will be plugging in there and where their wires will go. There are better places for a 12v outlet unless it is used for something needed when driving the boat. If you expect to have some USB device that you will use regularly when operating the boat I would put in a dedicated power lead for it run to wherever that device will be mounted. If you need USB power for charging a phone, put the outlet on the other side boat. There is a nice shelf for leaving things to charge.

If the BMS system will cause the house loads to drop (perhaps unexpectedly) I would have the nav essential equipment powered from the engine electrical bus all the time. Nothing like cruising along and suddenly everything does dark. While you expect the BMS alarm to give you some notice, in some situations it may not and just kill the power.

[thataway]

The review by ssobol makes many extremely important points.



The photo of the helm is extremely important, unless somehow you are going to radically revise the helm area, not just fill up holes, and cut new ones.

Over all the biggest mistake I see is putting crucial controls on the outboard (starboard) side of the helm, and behind the helm. They are not easily reached in either an emergency when not running the boat, or even for routine matters.

One might consider a muliplex system for a modern boat--I designed one and built one for the 38' sailboat we built in 1979-81. So consider that type of control as a possibility

The diagram switch is not of the best resolution--Not sure if that was the method of copy or the lower resolution of using the "photo" section to host it--if it was a bit better then we could more easily render thoughts.

The AC panel does not belong behind the helm--put it some place else. Same with the BMS (Please explain your BMS or cite a web site). It looks as if you have a very high amperage switch on the boat control panel, behind the wheel. You want to keep the heavy wiring (2/0?) as sort as possible--near the batteries. Or use a multiplex or remote solution.

The propane solenoid belongs in a galley panel, same for all of the various water switches. Water maker? 12 volt? What brand and where are you going to mount it. The switch for it, needs to be near the water maker, and any remotes you have for it--no need near the helm. Where are you putting the monitor for the LiFePO4 batteries? Again near the galley. In my last 25 I put these outboard of the galley--or could be on the face above the cabinets--just not as conveint to monitor

Please tell us about your BMS In several Li FePO4 battery systems I have built I only use a Victron or similar monitor system, and no external BMS. An internet search did not reveal a BMS similar to what you have pictured. In any case you do not want the heavy battery cables going to the console, and you want that switch to be easy to access--again not hidden behind the wheel.

The windless power breaker needs to be 60 or so amps, not a switch on the console.

What is your security system, and why a switch on the dash with other dash electronics?

That is my review for starters.

[pcg]

Oh man - such good feedback! I'll address ssobol's comment first. Will get to Bob's hopefully tonight. I'm also going to try to figure out another way to post the helm drawing. The C-Brats website resizes the jpeg, causing small details to blur.

[pcg]

Here's a link to a hi-res jpeg drawing of my helm design. If you're on a desktop you can use the little "+" icon in the upper right to zoom in. If you're on a cell phone just zoom with your fingers...
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/o1qdsn4hrxobftbd7fubl/Helm-design-1.jpg?rlkey=07tsyi0upk3oidwk8xdtzb3to&dl=0

[pcg]

[ssobol]

Bob makes a good point about running heavy cables from the batteries to the battery switch on the helm, unless the battery switch shown just remotely controls contactors located near the batteries.

FWIW my AC panel is mounted on the forward face of the galley cabinet behind the helm seat. The only time this panel is used is connecting/disconnecting to shore power. It is not used when driving the boat and is located in an out of the way location. Most of the AC stuff is mounted on the front bulkhead on the inside of the galley cabinet.

My battery switch is located in the battery compartment. Again, this is something not normally used when driving the boat.

I located a panel for the outside convenience lighting on the face of the galley cabinet near the main cabin door. Much more practical than on the helm.

Yes, the standard helm switch panel on the 22s is not the best design. Some boats have one or more horizontal rows of switches. I would consider changing mine if it didn't mean having to fill a big hole in the helm.

[pcg]

[ssobol]

[thataway]

Where does the inverter sit in all of this? Location? What is the size of the inverter? What are you running off the inverter? Is this switch to shut off the output of the LIFePO4 batteries, or is it for inflow of current from the start battery? This is key--it will be most likely more than 60 amps at full load. You are marginal with #2AGW wire for 60 amps--I figure more like 40 feet from start battery to your switch. Did you measure this? Your AGW #2 is OK for 30 feet (round trip). You want shut off high amperage switch for both the input to the house batteries from the start battery. You also want high amperage shut off for the Li house batteries.

Leave the DC switches where they are, but bring the AC controls out of the console. They do not belong in the wiring which you will put in the back of the console. The AC circuit will be unlikely to be used when you are running.
Where are the monitor gauges for the Li batteries? The I phone is OK, but you want something like the Victron 712 monitor also where it is easily read--and the inverter switches near by.

Also we put USB chargers (today probably want USB C charging ports) near the table, which is where we use computers, as well as at the helm where you may be using the I phone and I pad. (Or other phone/tablets).

Don't put items which are just as likely to be used at anchor or marina, where they are difficult to get to. (AC, and Inverter) The Starboard side of the helm is harder to access.

Are you running the Windlass power leads separate from the House battery? They should be wired directly to the start battery, and engine running when the windless is used.

I have not used Victron batteries. But most BMS shut the battery off when the fault occurs not 30 seconds later. The 30 second delay could be the time which critical temps, or overload could ruin the battery or start a fire....!!

In my boats I like to be able to put the bow light, cockpit lights, fore deck lights on from the bunk. I also put red LED as night light--both in the cabin and in the cockpit also accessible from the bunk. If you have to get up quickly at night, lets say the anchor is dragging--you want some lights to see by now...So the cabin and cockpit are at the head of a series of auxiliary light switches which can be reached from the bunk. See photo.

Here is a photo of the console just above the bunk level, with switches. Right above those is the emergency shut off for the auto pilot. There are three other cig. lighter plugs all switched here.: one is on the electronics shelf over the forward part of the cabin, for Sirius radio etc. One is inside the bunk area to run a "Vantastic Fan" to push air thru the forward hatch when open. The 3rd is by the "shelf over the port side of the cabin--along with USB charging ports. It is used to recharge the Ryobi batteries we use for a portable fan, plus some other appliances and the Torqueedo battery.



You may well want the thermostat and power switch for the heater here. So you can adjust it from the bunk. What type of propane heater are you using? (That goes to where you want to put the several sensors and automatic solenoid cutoff to be located.) I used propane only for stove with oven (force 10). I had the propane shut off switch near the stove in the galley. I had sensors behind the stove, (near where connectors were "hidden". An other sniffer in the bilge near where the propane lines ran. (but out of an area where water could get to the sensor.)

[pcg]

Here's a link to a pdf (jpeg was too large) of my power schematic. It shows all proposed electrical wiring on the boat except individual fused DC circuits. If you're on a desktop you can use the little "+" icon in the upper right to zoom in. If you're on a cell phone just zoom with your fingers... https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/9nbt9sjr0z4u4lqtf2ahw/Power-layout.pdf?rlkey=0nlnaen7lamwtj6eampx7drhn&dl=0

[pcg]

[pcg]

Well I thought it would be helpful to post a schematic of my power circuitry, but there are a couple problems with this. The jpeg my CAD system creates gets re-sized by this website, making it too blurry to read. My workaround was to make a pdf file, which is much smaller, but this website cannot display a pdf file. So my next workaround was to post it to Dropbox and post the link here. Problem with that is whenever I revise the pdf and update it on Dropbox, the Dropbox URL changes, and so my post I made becomes obsolete because the URL no longer exists. Oh well.. for now I will keep posting an update whenever a change is made. I think I'm close to being done so hopefully not much more will change. Here's where I am now...
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/cc0ol1b6o5t8czbh1o22g/Power-layout.pdf?rlkey=zn83mguwoh5qqw5as2elxu5xq&dl=0

[thataway]

Absolutely beautiful drawing. Only an engineer in America would do work to that level. (My father was an EE, and just the other day I was looking at my collection of templates, symbols, and figures, (along with the Duplex Deca Trig slide rules used.. His was used to calculate all of the electrical design of most of the Western Grid, and a number of power stations including the Nuclear. at San Clemente. (Yes I still know how to use a slide rule.). Included in the collection are a few bottles of India Ink, and various pens and other instruments.

To the point, I still cannot read some of the labels, so I don't know exactly what Victron components you are using. (You might just list them here._. I know that you probably cannot get the resolution on that drawing to where it is fully readable on the computer. I cannot make any comments, except well done, until I can work thru the diagram, and perhaps know some distances.

I am trying to figure any battery chargers 120 V AC that you would run off an inverter when underway--except perhaps a laptop. I have a setup which runs my MacBook Pro off 12 volts. (I have to keep modifying the cords to keep up with the power interfaces. Just recently I picked up a MBPro with the M3 apple chips, and it is back to another Mag Mount--in Apple style it is not retrofitted with the older Mag Mount power supply! (my power supply ran the old mag mount laptops.)

I do like to keep size of wiring consistent as it runs along, without changing it up or down.

Any "small" or not is going to really pull the juice out of the batteries. Maybe you have a smaller/than my "small" which still runs in the 1000 watt arena. Who needs a hair dryer, unless they are hooked up to mains power? Even Marie has never asked for that! (Now on our big cruising boats, that was adifferent story, but we had 8 KW diesel generators for her hair dryers!

[Robert H. Wilkinson]