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hardee
Joined: 30 Oct 2006 Posts: 12633 City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
Photos: SleepyC
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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On SleepyC I have an 1100 Rule-Mate in the forward cockpit bilge, and a 1500 Rule-Mate in the aft sunken dish bilge. On one crossing of Juan de Fuca, I apparently bumped my bilge switch off the auto position with my knee. When I realized that, I had about 8 inches at the aft wall of the cockpit. I was running about 7-8 knots in forward port quartering seas with a stiff 15+ breeze so the cockpit was loading with splash/spray from the waves. It took about 1 minute to empty. Boat sure felt better. ME TOO
And Yes, I have smooth bore hoses.
Harvey
SleepyC
_________________ Though in our sleep we are not conscious of our activity or surroundings, we should not, in our wakefulness, be unconscious of our sleep. |
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JamesTXSD
Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 7446 City/Region: from island boy to desert dweller
State or Province: AZ
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: "Wild Blue" (sold 9/14)
Photos: Wild Blue
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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If the rear deck on a boat is pooped, you need to move that water now. An 800 gph pump, if everything (including the hose) was at max efficiency, would move about 13 gallons per minute. Not much, not very fast.
That said, we had Wild Blue in a lot of conditions during the years, and getting any water in the cockpit was extremely rare.
We only had the 25, not the 22, but in traveling with a couple C-Dory groups, it seemed to me that the additional one ton of weight, more waterline, and beam of the 25 provided a better ride than the 22 at the same speeds. I agree that 2' chop would have us slow down, but the 22 would need to slow even more to get a similar ride.
For us, slowing down wasn't an issue... go for the best ride or fuel efficiency vs making miles.
The only time our scuppers were underwater was while tied to the dock with 7 adults in the cockpit (under the cover of our camperback to get out of the weather). Yes, it was a crowd. |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20829 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 11:00 am Post subject: |
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colbysmith wrote: | Quote: | Colby, there are none of the bilge pumps in any of the C Dory line, which really move a lot of water! |
My original bilge pump in the 22 was 500gph. I changed that to an 800, and added a 1100gph backup pump. I think I've got the same combination in my 25 bilge now. Combined they could pump a lot of water. 1000 gallons would probably sink any small boat... Colby |
The reality is that none of these Rule pumps can put out anywhere near the "rated" capacity
This Boat US article shows that the 500 gal per hour pump may realistically be only capable of 100 to 150 gallons per hour. 100 gal per hour loss due to voltage less than 12.8 volts, 150 gallon per hour loss due to head pressure of pressure of 36", and 100 gallon per hour loss due to 3/4-inch corrugated hose.
Displacement pump do better than the free plastic vane pumps. When on our sailboats we always carried a Whale Gusher 30 double diaphragm manual pump. It was capable of 30 gallons per minute, if you could keep up the cadence of 30 pumps per minute. We had water intrusion thru companionway and some hatches during severe N. Atlantic Storm on crossing Bermuda to Azores. (40' breaking seas and 3 days of winds in excess of 65 knots) where solid water was regularly breaking on deck. I had to supplement our two 1000 gallon electric pumps. There was enough sawdust and dog hair in the far reaches of hull that it regularly plugged up the bilge pump strainers. (We had tried to get any debris out by washing with a hose behind all cabinets before our voyage started.) The manual diaphragm pumps can take all of that debris out with each stroke, If anything does plug up plug up the pump, a simple opening of the chamber will clear it in seconds. _________________ Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL |
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Marco Flamingo
Joined: 09 Jul 2015 Posts: 1155 City/Region: Seattle
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2004
C-Dory Model: 16 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Limpet
Photos: Limpet
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Those actual GPH numbers are why I have a 2000 GPH pump with smooth wall hose in my CD 16. I figure that gets me a realistic 600 GPH, about the same rate I could do with a bucket (probably not for an hour). For a serious wave over the stern, GPH likely won't help. I would have to rely on PFD and DSC. |
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C-Slug
Joined: 13 Oct 2018 Posts: 13 City/Region: Ventura
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2004
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the replies! Really appreciate the knowledge here and kindness to share.
Colby, I will be installing a second bilge on our boat too, just in case the primary ever gives out.
As for the scuppers on the 25, I figured you'd have to be up and moving for those to work, which makes some sense. What doesn't make sense is that when you stop to go fishing or spend the night they will fill up with water! I'm never going to remember to put the plugs back in before slowing down.
To be clear, I'm in the Santa Barbara Channel routinely with our 22. On a good day, it's a breeze. On an OK day it's still fun. But when you get wind and mixed swell at a few feet, plus the following (longer period) groundswell on the way home, it's less fun. It's a lot to rely on NOAA forecast to get right. I've been out a couple of times where I thought, "10 more knots of wind and two more feet of swell and I'd be challenged." These were days predicted to be relatively calm.
Sum total, sounds like a 25 gives a smoother ride (and a bathroom option). But not necessarily more peace of mind. |
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C-Wolfe
Joined: 16 Sep 2020 Posts: 259 City/Region: Anchorage
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Valhalla
Photos: C-Wolfe
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Marco Flamingo wrote: | Those actual GPH numbers are why I have a 2000 GPH pump with smooth wall hose in my CD 16. I figure that gets me a realistic 600 GPH, about the same rate I could do with a bucket (probably not for an hour). For a serious wave over the stern, GPH likely won't help. I would have to rely on PFD and DSC. |
I always said that there is no better bail out pump then a scared sailor with a bucket _________________ Stephan
ValHalla 08 TC255 2024-present
C-Wolfe 22 C-Dory cruiser 2020-24
No Name; Bayliner explorer 26 2012-2015
sparkle; Ericson 25 CB 2008-2012
Sculpin; Drascombe Drifter 2005-2008 |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20829 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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The amount of drainage, or where the scuppers were located are different in different boats. My 2007, 25 never had the water back up in the scuppers, and drained well. I know that C Otter moved his drain points up, which required fiberglassing the old holes in.. A fair amount of work! |
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journey on
Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 3597 City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 10:07 am Post subject: |
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I'm not going to argue with the expert, but those scupper outlets are just above water level to allow water to drain out. In Journey On they went under water in the following conditions:
1. 4 or more people in the cockpit, when you're tied up at the dock. Rather disconcerting to have someone ask "where's that water coming from?"
2. When one is slowly cruising along with the stern somewhat buried, some water will come in. Not much, but some. And it will not drain out. Use the sponge.
We have plugs and usually use them after the fact.
Boris |
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colbysmith
Joined: 02 Oct 2011 Posts: 4559 City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2009
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Traveler
Photos: C-Traveler and Midnight-Flyer
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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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My scuppers are just barely above the water with no additional weight in the back. That's with full fuel and potable water and our Engel freezer. (And with the Yamaha 150 and 9.9.) However if either Rosanne or I step to the very back, particularly if we stand in the corner, (ie, catching dock cleats to tie lines, etc.) the scuppers are then working in reverse. (letting water in.) Unfortunately, with the cockpit floor in the 25, at least on our boat, the scuppers can not be raised any more. (They have to be at floor level to work.) I have scupper plugs that I keep in when we are not moving or sitting in the cockpit. They are removed at night in case of rain (and while we are in the cabin) or when underway. Colby |
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mutski
Joined: 16 Apr 2022 Posts: 74 City/Region: Homer
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Just Us
Photos: Just Us
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:23 am Post subject: |
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I'm new to the C-Dory game, but in my newly acquired 22 Cruiser, I find the downwind leg most disconcerting because there is an occasional tendency to broach on a large wave. I think the trick is not to travel close to the speed of the waves. |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20829 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:07 am Post subject: |
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mutski wrote: | I'm new to the C-Dory game, but in my newly acquired 22 Cruiser, I find the downwind leg most disconcerting because there is an occasional tendency to broach on a large wave. I think the trick is not to travel close to the speed of the waves. |
My feeling is if the C Dory 22 is properly trimmed, and handled, that it does far better than most boats going downwind/waves. Keep the bow up, No excess weight in the bow, trim tabes up; with motor up (Permatrim plays a role here), Judicious use of the throttle is also important. (This why offshore power boat racers have a driver and a separate throttle man.) Although staying on the back of a large wave is best, there may be times that you accelerate and go over the face (not breaking and less than the waterline length of the C Dory, with longer period). Sometimes it helps to crack off to one side, or on others do to straight. This becomes a reflex, as do many other sports. The more the dead rise, the more difficult down way/wind is. Full displacement boats and deep V's are far more likely to broach. |
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journey on
Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 3597 City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Foggy posted
"On a sail from Newport to St Maarten, via Bermuda, I met a guy who sailed a Catalina 22 around the world, twice. Impressive, but not for just anybody. "
Now, I've owned a Catalina 22 for many years, OK 10 years. And it went to many places in California and Mexico. Foggy, sorry but I don't believe that anyone sailed a Cat 22 around the world. It's not built for that, it was an entry boat and it would have come apart in the Pacific Ocean. I would assume the guy was boasting and picked the most improbable subject.
Now, I took a Catalina 36 to Tahiti, among other places and it did quite well. Someone, I believe, took a Catalina 27 around the world years ago. I feel Catalina builds good boats, but each has a purpose, and the 22 was an entry boat, the first boat Butler built.
Sorry Foggy, but you can tell that guy he was full of bull. And my comment is unrelated to this thread, obviously. Just been thinking about it for a couple of days.
Boris |
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mutski
Joined: 16 Apr 2022 Posts: 74 City/Region: Homer
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Just Us
Photos: Just Us
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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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thataway wrote: | mutski wrote: | I'm new to the C-Dory game, but in my newly acquired 22 Cruiser, I find the downwind leg most disconcerting because there is an occasional tendency to broach on a large wave. I think the trick is not to travel close to the speed of the waves. |
My feeling is if the C Dory 22 is properly trimmed, and handled, that it does far better than most boats going downwind/waves. Keep the bow up, No excess weight in the bow, trim tabes up; with motor up (Permatrim plays a role here), Judicious use of the throttle is also important. (This why offshore power boat racers have a driver and a separate throttle man.) Although staying on the back of a large wave is best, there may be times that you accelerate and go over the face (not breaking and less than the waterline length of the C Dory, with longer period). Sometimes it helps to crack off to one side, or on others do to straight. This becomes a reflex, as do many other sports. The more the dead rise, the more difficult down way/wind is. Full displacement boats and deep V's are far more likely to broach. |
I've been putting the trim tabs up running downwind, but good point about trimming the motor up. My old home-built dory occaisonally tried to broach too, but it was easier to control. It had a wider, completely flat bottom slightly turned up at the nose. |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20829 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Definitely have to bring the motor up, even if no Permatrim. The Permatrim I consider essential for going into the chop, as well as the trim tabs to get the bow down--and not as essential in bringing the bow. up doing down wind/seas,
I was in some pretty nasty seas in Johnston straits and was the only boat running (down wind), with wind against current--seas 6 to 8 feet, and short period. I just stayed on the back of seas and let her ride. No boats including the 80 footers were attempting to go into the seas. |
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mutski
Joined: 16 Apr 2022 Posts: 74 City/Region: Homer
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Just Us
Photos: Just Us
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