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25/26 vs 22 in rough waters
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C-Slug



Joined: 13 Oct 2018
Posts: 13
City/Region: Ventura
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2004
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:57 am    Post subject: 25/26 vs 22 in rough waters Reply with quote

Hi,
I have tried to search this topic and found some great stuff but wanted to get deeper into my specifics. Here goes!
I have had a C-Dory 22 for about 5 years now and I love it and am very fortunate for it. I love it's fuel economy and simplicity. I also appreciate its seaworthiness. This is my first boat.
Typically we will take her out in good weather, but here in the Santa Barbara Channel, you never really know what you're going to get. Wind directions change, fog comes up quick, swell builds, etc. It's a wild place. A few times now I've had conditions change quickly for the worse and although it's never been too scary I do wonder if a slightly bigger hull would make it safer. A self-bailing hull with some deadrise, I would think, might help too.
Anyone with experience taking a 22 vs. 25 or 26 out in rough conditions? How do they compare?
Thank you!
Crawford
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20806
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 25 will handle rough water better. But heavy conditions are just that. I spent 50 years of my life sailing off S. Calif. so I know what your conditions are out of Santa Barbara and the Channel Islands. When we got a "new boat" (sail) and wanted to see how it handled rough conditions, we would head for San Miguel Island, and Point Conception.

The average day in the channel can get a bit sporty in the afternoons. At one time I ran a deep V--(about 22* dead rise) Ray Hunt designed hull. Even with this boat, I had to slow down to cross the channel in the evenings. Any of the C Dory line will have low deadrise--you have to put the bow down, and accept spay as you buck into chop. The 25 will be better than the 22, but a deep V they are not. The deep V has a lot of trade offs--better going into chop--not so well going with the wind waves. The fuel economy will be worse, the boats will roll more.

There are hulls designed for the channel, like the Radon's Not often seen in Calif. are boats like the Contender and Regulator--not pilot house boats but with 24* deep V.

We owned 25's because of the increased room and head, as well as the better ride. My son runs a 25 C Dory out of Dana Point. For any of the C Dory line, I would advise going out early in the day, then 95% of the time, you will be going down or cross wind/seas coming back to your home port.

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Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL
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Foggy



Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 1520
City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
Photos: W B Nod
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any C Dory is not a "go anywhere big water boat".
Realize, at extremes in weather, even the largest Navy ships have difficulties.

I've had my CD 26 Venture challenge the large notorious "square wave"*
pattern of Lake Michigan (aka The Lake of a Thousand Moods) and can
report these experiences are not pleasurable.

Longer story shortened: Length is ride. Ride is subjective.

Aye.

* steep, short-period waves; heights principally a function of wind speed and
fetch creating waves in excess of 10 meters (33'), about the height of a 4 story
home.
Lake Superior took the S.S. Edmund Fitzgerald, a 730' cargo ship and the lives
of all 29 crew, November 10, 1975.
https://www.michiganseagrant.org/lessons/lessons/by-broad-concept/earth-science/data-sets/the-storm-that-sunk-the-edmund-fitzgerald/

Over time, there have been more than 6,000 shipwrecks in the Great Lakes taking
an estimated 30,000 mariners lives.
https://www.shipwreckmuseum.com/underwater-research/shipwrecks/

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kaelc



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 411
City/Region: Saanich
State or Province: BC
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Island Magic
Photos: Stil-Afloat
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iíve never been out in a 22. On a trip in my 25 my buddy described it as school bus waves coming from all directions. Not comfortable but it has handled a lot for me. For real comfort go for an 8000+ Grady white or Boston whaler, but we all know the trade off.
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C-Slug



Joined: 13 Oct 2018
Posts: 13
City/Region: Ventura
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2004
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies.
That Ray Hunt design looks a lot to my beginner's eyes a little like a Radon hull--lots of deadrise and chines and belly. Nice looking boats. Probably not great for fuel economy! The commercial Radons around here are very heavy by design, to plow through waves and wind on following seas (typical for afternoons coming home).
We are very careful in picking our days out but there are times when the conditions change suddenly, or there are localized weather events that surprise you. Often in the shipping channel, as one example, there will be big waves out of nowhere. I've taken a few on the deck on days that were otherwise glassy. Thankfully my bilge has handled that without issue. But the more you go out, the more the law of averages is likely to catch up to you!
Thanks for the info on the Great Lakes. A lot of wind, like here, it seems.
BTW I used to live at Ocean Beach in San Francisco and would watch the Coast Guard boats play in the surf in 15 ft. conditions for practice. Pretty awesome to watch.
Take care.
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journey on



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3595
City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have seen several 22's out at Santa Cruz Island, which means they've crossed the Santa Barbara Channel. In fact we saw one going west on the south side during the afternoon.

From these sightings, a 22 can handle the channel. It's still best to cross in the morn, before the wind comes up.

I'm also glad that we have a 25, since a bigger boat does better in rough weather. But the trip can be done in a 22. We went to Santa Cruz many times in a Catalina 22 sailboat.

Boris
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Foggy



Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 1520
City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
Photos: W B Nod
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a sail from Newport to St Maarten, via Bermuda, I met a guy who sailed a
Catalina 22 around the world, twice. Impressive, but not for just anybody.

Quote:
But the more you go out, the more the law of averages is likely to catch up to you!
I like that. It goes with my current mantra 'less is more'...

Aye.
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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 12632
City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
Photos: SleepyC
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ran side by side with a CD-25 about 12 miles down Knight Inlet one (long) day. We were about 100 feet to 100 yards apart, running into a 3 - 5 foot wind against tide steep chop. Mostly in the 4 to 6 or 7 knot range. We were both throwing big spray, but I was the one with the rougher ride, way more hobby horsing, and green water on the foredeck.

It was with this boat, (the CD-25 in the background), "Plan B" out of California. Sure wish I could get in touch with the owners. They were a really nice young couple and we spent a few days together, exploring. This is anchored near Mound Island in the southern Broughtons.



Harvey
SleepyC Moon


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T.R. Bauer



Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 1726
City/Region: Wasilla
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Whisperer
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No question when you add 3 feet it's a better ride. Safer? I honestly don't know, but it can't be by much, if at all.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20806
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

T.R. Bauer wrote:
No question when you add 3 feet it's a better ride. Safer? I honestly don't know, but it can't be by much, if at all.


The one feature which makes the 25 a "safer" boat is that it has a self bailing cockpit. All be it that the scuppers are relatively small, and some are even set too low on the boat. There are some of the early C Dory 25's (in the 2002-2004 era which have an opening to the bilge way aft, with a lip around it, and some have a lid. The Cruise ships (1995-96) have a variety of cockpit differences--my son's is very similar to a 2007, yet I have seen at least one of the "Cruise ships" which have the open aft cockpit deck like the 2002/2004 boats.

It is very rare for much water to get into the cockpit of a 22--but if it does, it could be a major issue.
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T.R. Bauer



Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 1726
City/Region: Wasilla
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Whisperer
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
T.R. Bauer wrote:
No question when you add 3 feet it's a better ride. Safer? I honestly don't know, but it can't be by much, if at all.


The one feature which makes the 25 a "safer" boat is that it has a self bailing cockpit. All be it that the scuppers are relatively small, and some are even set too low on the boat. There are some of the early C Dory 25's (in the 2002-2004 era which have an opening to the bilge way aft, with a lip around it, and some have a lid. The Cruise ships (1995-96) have a variety of cockpit differences--my son's is very similar to a 2007, yet I have seen at least one of the "Cruise ships" which have the open aft cockpit deck like the 2002/2004 boats.

It is very rare for much water to get into the cockpit of a 22--but if it does, it could be a major issue.


I've always wondered if they would even drain on a CD 25 if a person accidently filled the back of the boat on set of bad following waves they couldn't outrun. I don't think anyone actually knows, but I do know nobody wants to find out. I guess you might survive the first one and maybe it would drain before the 2nd and 3rd. One thing is sure, it absolutely wouldn't drain in a CD 22. I suspect everyone will be swimming.
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ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 3372
City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

T.R. Bauer wrote:
... I've always wondered if they would even drain on a CD 25 if a person accidently filled the back of the boat on set of bad following waves they couldn't outrun. I don't think anyone actually knows, but I do know nobody wants to find out. I guess you might survive the first one and maybe it would drain before the 2nd and 3rd. One thing is sure, it absolutely wouldn't drain in a CD 22. I suspect everyone will be swimming.


You might think that since the scuppers on the 25 are so low, a good pooping might put enough weight in the cockpit that the scuppers become submerged and wouldn't drain. Further pooping would make things worse. Some people say that the scuppers are underwater when the boat is just heavily loaded.
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colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 4546
City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2009
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Traveler
Photos: C-Traveler and Midnight-Flyer
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure I'm convinced that the 25 rides any better than the 22. Sure, it's more stable laterally when you walk side to side. However, I owned the 22 for 10 years, and have now had my 25 going into my third season. When I did Alaska's Inside Passage in my 22, with a couple in a 25, it appeared we both took the rougher chop about the same. My 25 doesn't feel any more comfortable in 2 foot chop than my 22 did. They both tend to ride rough in any form of chop on plane. My wife felt more safe sitting in the cockpit of a 22 than in the 25, simply with the lower floor, thus higher gunnels. The 25 scuppers are under water with any weight in the cockpit. But that only matters when you are still in the water. If you want the bigger boat for the enclosed head and more room, go for it. If you want it for a better ride, I'm just not convinced in my experience that it's that much different. BTW, the scuppers do work underway. Also, I had two bilge pumps when I had my 22. They could pump a lot of water quickly. I guess it all comes down to how much water you are talking about. Colby
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20806
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I had two bilge pumps when I had my 22. They could pump a lot of water quickly. I guess it all comes down to how much water you are talking about. Colby


Colby, there are none of the bilge pumps in any of the C Dory line, which really move a lot of water! The head, plus often using the crinkle type of bilge pump hose, makes them even less efficient. Pour 5 gallons of water into the bilge and see low long it takes to pump it out, They try with 50 or 500 gallons! How much water would the cockpit of either a 22 or a 25 hold? My rough calculation is 1,000 gallons.

Fortunately the C Dory does very well with following seas, and lifts rapidly to avoid filling with waves. IF the transom/stern were held down by a stern anchor, and a heavy current and waves from the stern--would be a different matter.
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colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 4546
City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2009
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Traveler
Photos: C-Traveler and Midnight-Flyer
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Colby, there are none of the bilge pumps in any of the C Dory line, which really move a lot of water!


My original bilge pump in the 22 was 500gph. I changed that to an 800, and added a 1100gph backup pump. I think I've got the same combination in my 25 bilge now. Combined they could pump a lot of water. 1000 gallons would probably sink any small boat... Colby
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