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journey on
Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 3597 City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Let me repeat.
The Victron DC-DC charger has a motor running switch. This is to start the charger when the motor is running, by applying the motors 12 VDC output to the connection in the DC-DC charger. The DC-DC charger is disconnected at all other times, cannot backfeed, cannot charge.
This switch makes sure that the charger only works when the engine is running. NO RELAY NEEDED. Of course this does not allow charging when connected to shore power, so I've connected that switch to an external 12VDC source via a manual switch. That way I can turn on the DC-DC charger when I want, certainly when the engine is running but also when I'm on shore power.
Boris |
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journey on
Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 3597 City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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I checked the boat, I have a Renogy DC-DC charger, NOT a Victron. I bought the 20 amp Renogy because it's cheaper: $102 vs $170, on Amazon.
They both have the alternator ON/power feature. Renogy has no Bluetooth, which I don't use.
The Renogy has a current limiting feature that has come in handy, a current limiter switch. This switch/port allows one to have a 1/2 rate charge, 10 amps. I use this switch to reduce the current to 10 amps when the boat is connected to shore power, so as to not overdrive the battery charger. Works well.
Boris |
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croakz
Joined: 21 Sep 2020 Posts: 104 City/Region: Seattle
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1997
C-Dory Model: 22 Angler
Vessel Name: Jolly Blue
Photos: Jolly Blue
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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The Victron iPhone app has a demo library that lets you look at settings without connecting to a real product. You can check out the features and setting easily.
For Victron the alternator detection feature is called "Engine Shutdown Detection". You can set the detection voltages that kick off the DC-to-DC charger.
I have a Victron Orion-Tr Smart DC-DC Isolated 12/12-18A charger and it works great to charge my bank of lifepo4 batteries.
- tom |
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Pat Anderson
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 8555 City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
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Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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Here is my revised block diagram which I THINK is the way Bob explained it. Bob and Boris, do you agree?
Two things are missing: the locations and amperages of fuses, and (what was puzzling me reading the manual of the DC-DC charger but dawned on me reading Boris's post about the "motor running" switch) what the manual calls the "D+ ignition wiring." Specifically, the manual says, "The DC-DC will not power on or operate until the D+ ignition cable is connected to the ignition circuit where it will detect a 12V source to operate ON."
Now, to take my battery out of "shelf mode" I need to charge it WITHOUT the motor running. I THINK I can accomplish this by putting some 12 volt power into the D+ ignition input on the DC-DC charger, say a separate 12 volt battery connected to an automotive battery charger with the positive connected to the DC-DC positive input AND the D+ input, and the negative connected to the negative input. The DC-DC positive and negative outputs would be connected to the LiFePO4 battery's corresponding posts.
In real life, I will connect the "ignition on" wire from the outboard to the D+ on the DC-DC, AND Boris's work around to charge from shore power. It seems Renogy dropped the ball not to include some means of powering the DC-DC on when the motor is NOT running though.
_________________
DAYDREAM - CD25 Cruiser
CRABBY LOU - CD16 Angler (sold 2020)
Pat & Patty Anderson, C-Brat #62!
http://daydreamsloop.blogspot.com
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20829 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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schematic looks fine, but I would add a breaker between the DC to DC charger and Li battery (unless the DC to DC has a breaker on its output.
You could just hook up the guest charger with the start battery and battery to battery charger on the boat. That would be what you are doing at home or in the slip. _________________ Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL |
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Pat Anderson
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 8555 City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
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Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:22 am Post subject: |
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This (20 amp AC to DC charger for lithium batteries) looks like a good solution to shore power charging of LiFePO4 batteries, seems better to me that a work-around with the battery to battery (DC-DC) charger and the problem of the D+ ignition connection requirement for the Renogy DC-DC charger.
Thoughts? |
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ssobol
Joined: 27 Oct 2012 Posts: 3382 City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
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Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Pat Anderson wrote: | This (20 amp AC to DC charger for lithium batteries) looks like a good solution to shore power charging of LiFePO4 batteries, seems better to me that a work-around with the battery to battery (DC-DC) charger and the problem of the D+ ignition connection requirement for the Renogy DC-DC charger.
Thoughts? |
That charger looks like it probably won't last long in a salty marine environment. |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20829 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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I have a 10 amp charager 120 V mains power AC to 10 amp DC 14.6 volts. One feature I like is that it has as a screen showing state of charge, volts out, amps out.
I got rid of the clamps--and put in Anderson Power Pole 30 amp connectors on the battery and the charger.
I would either hard wire or put a more robust connector. You don't want that out in the weather! |
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Pat Anderson
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 8555 City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
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Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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ssobol wrote: |
That charger looks like it probably won't last long in a salty marine environment. |
That charger being a stand alone "shore power" charger would only be used in my driveway or garage plugged into an extension cord. In the salty marine environment, the charging will come from the alternator to starting battery then to the lithium battery through the DC-DC charger and from the solar panels through the charge controller then directly to the lithium battery. The alternative would be to upgrade the Guest 10-10 on board charger. This stand alone 20 amp charger seems like it would be worth the ~$100 to me. |
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Pat Anderson
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 8555 City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
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Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Anyway, back to the Renogy DC-DC charger and LiFePO4 battery. The DC-DC charger is the 40 amp version.
I hooked it all up to bench test. I am confident all the connections are correct (i.e., the positive and negative are clearly marked for the input to and output from the charger, and I triple checked. I am using a fully charged Group 31 AGM battery connected to an automotive charger in lieu of the "starting battery" and the charger output is connected to the lithium battery. The "engine on" function is a wire from the positive lug of the AGM battery to the D+ connector on the DC-DC charger. All wiring is 10 gauge (ideally it would be 8 or 6 but I did not have any, for the install on the boat I will use larger wire). The charger powers on and starts up - BUT the status LED is red, which indicates a fault.
It could be the DIP switches I suppose. Switch 5 is up, which is "OFF," which selects lithium. The other four switches select charging voltage, with choices ranging from 14.0 to 14.6. I have it set for 14.6, which is all the other switches "ON," which is down. I COULD try all the other charging voltages I suppose. I did not find any guidance in the battery manual.
Any ideas on what else the fault could be (this question is directed to people who have a correctly functioning lithium battery or batteries and a DC-DC charger installed). Boris, you have the 20 amp version of the same DC-DC charger installed, what are your DIP switch settings?
Thanks!
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Pat Anderson
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 8555 City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
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Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2022 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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thataway wrote: | I have a 10 amp charager 120 V mains power AC to 10 amp DC 14.6 volts. One feature I like is that it has as a screen showing state of charge, volts out, amps out.
I got rid of the clamps--and put in Anderson Power Pole 30 amp connectors on the battery and the charger.
I would either hard wire or put a more robust connector. You don't want that out in the weather! |
What is the brand and model of your AC to DC 14.5 charger? The screen seems like a good feature but if I EVER get my LiFePO4 activated (which is by the initial charge, which at the moment I seem unable to do), that same data will show up on my Renogy phone app via bluetooth from the battery itself. |
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journey on
Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 3597 City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
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Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Well, Pat, sorry to be late to the party, but I've been painting the bottom of das boot and surviving Fathers Day. Amazing how many fathers we have in the family now.
So, I've checked your latest schematic and it looks good. I assume that on the bench, you've not connected the MPPT. Given that, it looks like the wiring diagram for my installation. I'm using a 20 amp version of your 40 amp charger. There is one difference in that I power the "ignition on" port with power from the Li battery. If the FLA battery goes too low during the charge it may shut the charger off. Your switches are set as the manual and my charger. I assume that the starter (FLA) battery is being continuously charged during the Li battery charge.
From the manual's troubleshooting section.
1.Double check that your wiring is correct with a multi-meter and
that the battery levels are suitable within the operating voltage
range.
1.The DC-DC is experiencing an internal short circuit due to an
imbalance between its input and output circuits. Restart the DC-DC by disconnecting the input/output and then reconnect.
The error will clear automatically upon a successful restart. If
issues continue with a permanent red led, then contact support
to address the previous troubleshooting step.
Now back to my opinion
All I can think of is to take a voltmeter and check the input and output power and the ignition on switch for 12 Vdc. If you've got 12 v on both sides and to the switch, you should be OK. Make sure that the grounds are common on both sides of the charger with the resistance function. Renogy sells a common ground charger as well as (I assume) a separate ground. When the FLA battery is charging the Li battery, check the input voltage to make sure it doesn't go below 8 Vdc and shut off the DC-DC charger. How are the cables connected to the Li battery. I had to order 8 mm studs to guarantee the cables were tight.
40 amps is a lot to draw continuously from a FLA battery. I know they're good for >200 A, but you're having trouble. Try connecting the 1/2 rate port to 12 Vdc as discussed in the manual . 20 A is a good place to start.
The circuit is simple. If everything is connect correctly and the FLA battery is charged, the switches are closed, the chargeer should charge. Chack all the voltages with a voltmeter.
Boris |
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Salmon Fisher
Joined: 07 Aug 2009 Posts: 810 City/Region: Arlington
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2004
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Kim Christine
Photos: Kim Christine
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Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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Pat Anderson,
How did your Lithium Battery installation go? What was the performance like? _________________ Patrick and Kim Walker
2004 25 Cruiser-Present
2000 22 Cruiser 2009-2014 (Sold)
2006 25 Cruiser 2014-2019 (Sold)
1985 22 Classic -2019 (Sold)
1991 19 Arima Sea Ranger-2019-2021 (Sold)
2015 27 Ranger Tug-2019-2023 (Sold)
1987 22 Cruiser -2021-2023 (Sold)
Honey, this REALLY will be my last boat, honest! |
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Pat Anderson
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 8555 City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Salmon Fisher wrote: | Pat Anderson,
How did your Lithium Battery installation go? What was the performance like? |
The project is on the shelf for the time being. The lithium battery is in the truck camper right now with a Renogy 110 volt charger to power my CPAP! |
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Salmon Fisher
Joined: 07 Aug 2009 Posts: 810 City/Region: Arlington
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2004
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Kim Christine
Photos: Kim Christine
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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Glad you "unlocked" the problem you had initially with the battery.
What was your solution? |
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