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Our Next Upgrade?
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Pat Anderson



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 8551
City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 9:51 pm    Post subject: Our Next Upgrade? Reply with quote

We had a great presentation last night at Squalicum Yacht Club on lithium batteries on boats. With the prices dropping, I think this MIGHT just be the next improvement on Daydream. With the freezer running all night, the two flooded cell house batteries routinely drop close to the 50% discharge limit. With a 200 amp hour lithium battery that can discharge down to 80%, I would have a LOT more peace of mind!
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DAYDREAM - CD25 Cruiser
CRABBY LOU - CD16 Angler (sold 2020)
Pat & Patty Anderson, C-Brat #62!
http://daydreamsloop.blogspot.com

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bradmond



Joined: 17 Apr 2022
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're also lighter weight and power an inverter much better than flooded.
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Gilbertsons



Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Posts: 59
City/Region: Denver
State or Province: CO
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Little Bit
Photos: Little Bit
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post Pat,

Barb and I are quickly heading that way for our house battery.

Scott & Barb
formerly "Little Bit"
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croakz



Joined: 21 Sep 2020
Posts: 104
City/Region: Seattle
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1997
C-Dory Model: 22 Angler
Vessel Name: Jolly Blue
Photos: Jolly Blue
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just make sure you have a charging setup for lifepo4 batteries. They can kill an alternator directly. Many have theirs on a DC to DC charger (I do) and I also shore power it with a Victron 15a charger.

My one tip is find a battery with Bluetooth. I thought it would be a gimmick, but love the simplicity over installing a shunt.

- tom
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pcg



Joined: 31 Aug 2018
Posts: 405
City/Region: Sherwood
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Quest
Photos: pcg
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be aware that ABYC is likely to issue a new standard, E-13 Lithium Ion batteries, in July 2022.
The current working document is TE-13 and there has been much talk online about what it likely contains. It applies to batteries with a rating over 600 watt-hours (for 12V battery that's 50 amp-hours) and will almost surely include a requirement for a BMS that gives a warning before shutting down the battery, so that the boater has time to prepare for a shutdown. There is some question about whether it will require an external BMS, as well. Most LiFePO4 batteries today have an internal BMS.
You may not care about ABYC standards as they are guidelines. and not requirements, for manufacturers. However, your insurance company might care.
I'm going to wait two months to see what the new standard says before making a decision. I'm not an ABYC member and thus won't be able to access the document directly, but once it's published word will rapidly get out

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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20778
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pat, I started the LiFePO4 system on the C Dory25 about 4 years ago. I used it, isolated, to power 2 chest type refer/freezers, the induction burner, and microwave.

That used 2 100 amp hour Battle Born batteries, Sterling Battery to Battery chargers, off the engine start battery, a Victron Multiplus 2KW (inverter), 80amp (battery charger) and 50 amp boost (of 120 volt AC, with pass thru switch.). If you have surges over the 30 amps of your boat, or incoming mains voltage is less than 110V the system will bring it back to 120 volts, and handle short amperage overloads. I monitored with Victron 712.

I also made a single 100 amp hour, Victron 30 amp B to B charger, 600 watt inverter, and 12 volt output to run Freezer in SUV or Truck. Less cost because I used Chinese knock off parts, (except the battery to battery charger.

Remember you cannot directly tie this into the house bank system. It must be a separate system. Although there are some LiFePO4 engine start batteries--the huge majority are not designed for engine starting. BMS will shut down before the necessary power draw may be reached.

I agree it will be interesting to see what ABYC comes up with the requirements. But the basic parts will always be the same. You might have to add another component,

Wiring is heavy, and should be kept to as short runs as possible.

I can help with specific issues.

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Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL
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journey on



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3593
City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a great idea. I used a 100 a-h battery, which has proved adequate. Here's how I did it: Journey On Li battery installation.

Boris
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smckean (Tosca)



Joined: 18 Jan 2014
Posts: 974
City/Region: Guemes Island (Anacortes)
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Tosca
Photos: Tosca
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pat wrote:
....the two flooded cell house batteries.....


Pat, what was the total amp-hours of this 2 battery house bank when new?

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Sandy McKean
Purchased Tosca in 2014
Re-powered to Yammi 200 in 2015
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Pat Anderson



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 8551
City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2022 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

smckean (Tosca) wrote:
Pat wrote:
....the two flooded cell house batteries.....


Pat, what was the total amp-hours of this 2 battery house bank when new?


Don't recall exactly. They are NAPA Group 27 deep cycle floorded cell marine batteries, I don't think they had amp hours stated. But they have been seriously over-discharged, like down to 6 or 7 volts once when the boat was at West Coast Marine for service and the ARB freezer was accidentally left on. They seemed to come back on charging but now overnight they go down to 12.0 even if fully charged the day before. Pretty sure they are EOL...
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Pat Anderson



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 8551
City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2022 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read Dr. Bob's post and Boris's thread on his install. I understand bits and pieces but there is still too much that I don't understand. I will just lay out my ignorance here and hope the community will fill in the blanks for me!

I have a new Suzuki DF200 that has a 54 amp alternator that puts out 38 amps at 1,000 RPMs. The alternator output goes to a VSR (voltage sensing relay) that has cables going to the starting battery and the house battery bank. It charges the starting battery until it is fully charged and then automatically switches over to charge the house bank. The on-board shore power charger is a Guest 10/10 with one wire to the starting battery and the other to the house battery bank (two NAPA deep cycle lead acid marine batteries that I suspect are EOL). I have 200 watts of solar on the roof with an MPPT solar controller that is wired to the house battery bank. I have a Victron BMW 700 battery monitor wired to the house battery bank.

Here is the battery I am looking at. $765 with free shipping.

To switch to a LifePO battery (or batteries), I THINK I need a DC to DC charger from the terminal of the VSR that goes to the new LifePO battery, although I don't know if this is sufficient isolation for the LifePO house battery from the lead acid starting battery. I ASSUME I can leave the VSR cable that goes to the starting battery as it is. I THINK the solar controller can be switched to the lithium setting and the wire can be connected directly to the LifePO4 battery. I THINK the Guest on-board charger will need to be replaced, but I don't know with what, as the starting battery will remain a lead-acid battery.

So what does the collective think I will need to do? In your responses, please do NOT assume that I will know what you are talking about, assume you are explaining this to someone who knows nothing!

Thanks!

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colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 4522
City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2009
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Traveler
Photos: C-Traveler and Midnight-Flyer
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2022 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally? $765 will buy me at least 15 years worth of the standard lead acid house batteries. (2 batteries that last 5 years each.) With two house batteries I'm currently running my refrigeration, a freezer, a cpap, an LED anchor liight, and a fan, and perhaps a webasto heater, all for at least 12 hours. Then several other LED lights for a couple of hours. And I'm still seeing more than 70% on them when I start up later in the morning. And I don't need any special chargers, switches, or altenators. Mr. Green Colby
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ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 3358
City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2022 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

colbysmith wrote:
Personally? $765 will buy me at least 15 years worth of the standard lead acid house batteries. (2 batteries that last 5 years each.) With two house batteries I'm currently running my refrigeration, a freezer, a cpap, an LED anchor liight, and a fan, and perhaps a webasto heater, all for at least 12 hours. Then several other LED lights for a couple of hours. And I'm still seeing more than 70% on them when I start up later in the morning. And I don't need any special chargers, switches, or altenators. Mr. Green Colby


Where I live Walmart EverMaxx double duty batteries (size 24) are about $85 each (w/tax). They are 75ah. In my boat they last about 5 years. I have two batteries and one is used for all services and the other is reserve. About the only time the second one is used is in BOTH for a start in the morning if we have been anchored out overnight, but not always. So the cost of the Li batt would get me about 10 of those. If you add in the cost of the necessary charger and the like for the Li battery, it would take quite awhile to get the same value as with my existing set up. How long will a Li battery last? How 'bout the charger? As Colby says, unless it is a bit north of 15 years it doesn't seem worth it, at least for me.

Only immediate benefit is the reduced weight.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20778
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2022 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pat, I am using a Renogy battery on my "car/suv" system. It is a generation before the current ones, and I do like the Renogy. Mine has a "storage" function, which limits the self discharge (which is very low to begin with).

I assume that you are choosing the more expensive self heating battery because of potential temperatures below freezing or below Zero F. Are you really planning to use this battery in sub freezing weather? Where will it be located in the boat? Will that place be below zero or below freezing?

I always refer people to:to Will Prowse's U Tube site. This Renogy is on the battery I own.. Will gives this battery high marks, and one of the reasons I used it. Prowse's only negative is that this battery cannot be used in series. That is not an issue for you, since you will only be dealing with 12 volt (actually 13.4 volt) systems. The 100 amp hr battery will do fine for the one freezer/refrigerator. (And I was running an ARB freezer in my system)

You will need a battery to battery charger. With the 54 amp output (>30 amps available, I would suggest the Renogy 20 amp (they also have a 40 amp) Battery to battery charger. It has a temperature sensor--which I consider an excellent feature. It can also be current limited (I have not read the manual, but I suspect that would be a feature which you would use to charge the Li battery when you are at home or marina and still use the 10 amp Guest charger to the start battery. I have a separate 10 amp charger for my "portable SUV" unit. There is also an "ignition Switch" so its use can be limited to either only when you are running the engine, or you can use that to turn the system off, or on, when the boat is at the dock.

You should be able to do one of several things with the solar: One would be to dedicate it only to the Li battery. Another is to use it on the house, and then combine house and start--and then use it to charge all 3 batteries (the Li thru the Battery to battery charger. Or you can use a double pole double double throw switch (this is a switch which takes both neg and pos leads and transfers from one system (house battery) to another system (LI battery). This would require that you
change the controller settings between FLA and Ii settings.

As we develop what your goals are, and how much of the time you run the engine each day, how much the solar really contributes, etc. I wonder if you really need the "self heating" function? The Blue tooth monitoring is an excellent feature and worth a few extra dollars ($40, which will work on any Renogy battery (I might get one to play around with on my older battery, although I have an external monitor). Vs the specific monitor for Renogy: ($55 which does have some nice features, including a remote to put the battery in storage {shelf} mode).

It sounds as if your FLA are at the "end of life" (EOL), and you will be replacing them--or at least the engine start battery.

Don't forget to fuse everything. I fuse the wire from the B to B charger to the battery at both ends of the wire. Of course fuse the LI battery output to either the freezer circuit--or if used as a house then to that use. Also fuse to the MPPT controller.

As to those who say it is cheaper--yes it is cheaper. There is no question about that. But consider the weight, and you can get a lot more "power" out of these batteries. For example, I started with one 100 amp hour Battle Born battery, and soon migrated to two 100 amp hour batteries. I was running two refrigerator freezers, an induction burner, and a microwave--all my cooking was done off these two batteries, thru a Victron Multiplus 2000 watt PSW inverter, 80 amp 110 volt charger (you can charge the Li Fe batteries much faster, up to C1, which would mean 100 amps) and the Multiplus, has a built in transfer switch between mains or generator power--and inverter power. Also it will boost voltage to 1120 volts and provide a brief overload on the mains circuit up to 50 amps. Great feature if you are at the end of the dock and the 120 volt power is really 90 volts (not too uncommon at older docks)

To do all of this with FLA battery would take 2 8 D batteries. (200 amp hours each) at a cost of $400 each and weight of 130 lbs each: total 260# vs 52#.

Many RV's and higher end boats are now coming with LiFePO4 batteries as an option and a few as standard. Many of the bass boats, and sport fishing boats are using nothing but li batteries with their trolling motors. So the LiFePO4 battery has become mainline. (My son paid over $6.00 a gallon of regular gas in Calif. when we talked 2 days ago--a week's worth of gas all of a sudden may cost $600 dollars or if you have a C Dory 25 a fill up will be over $700). The Tom Cat 255 fill up will be over $1000 many places. Perhaps this puts items in prospective? Not sure. But I am glad my Caracal Cat gets 5 miles to the gallon! (And our prices are not that high in Pensacola.),

As Pat developes his system, there will be a lot of question, asked and hopefully answered.
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Pat Anderson



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 8551
City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2022 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is lookng more like the right battery for me. $500 and free shipping. It shuts down charging and discharging based on temperature, and it has bluetooth.

I guess I don't understand what "DC to DC" and "battery to battery" mean. Are they the same thing or different? I would love to see a diagram of what all my necessary components and their connections would look like.

On the price of fuel, it will probably keep our cruising a LOT more local, as in Sucia Island and not Desolation Sound!

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croakz



Joined: 21 Sep 2020
Posts: 104
City/Region: Seattle
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1997
C-Dory Model: 22 Angler
Vessel Name: Jolly Blue
Photos: Jolly Blue
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2022 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pat,

I have that Renogy 100AH Bluetooth battery. It's nice, the iPhone app work for me well where some reviews says it's flaky. It is bigger than I expected, at a 13" long. I also got some from EG4 (Will Prowse like their stuff) and they are only 10.2" long, so I was able to fit 2 in my port side transom.

https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-wp-lithium-battery-12v-100ahs/

- tom
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