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electric c-dory and speed with kickers
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croakz



Joined: 21 Sep 2020
Posts: 104
City/Region: Seattle
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1997
C-Dory Model: 22 Angler
Vessel Name: Jolly Blue
Photos: Jolly Blue
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

galiano wrote:
How do you like the Spirit? Has it been reliable?


Seems fine, we don't use it much, but it start every time vs my old Suzuki 2.5hp that I had to cross my fingers with after sitting for a while. Maybe I didn't do all the storage maintenance I should have on it, but that's part of the appeal of electric motors.
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kennharriet



Joined: 22 Jan 2009
Posts: 510
City/Region: Grangeville
State or Province: ID
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Lochsa
Photos: Lochsa
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like you will be running an electric motor by mandate in WA in 8 years. It seems to me the US could reach the most efficient combination of all available energy sources and technologies in the shortest period of time by fully utilizing fossil fuels.

https://gearjunkie.com/news/clean-cars-2030-washington-gas-car-ban
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colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 4522
City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2009
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Traveler
Photos: C-Traveler and Midnight-Flyer
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, Hontoon State Park in Florida was using an electric outboard on their pontoon ferry boat. (The boat was restricted to 6 pax + driver, due USCG regs - no USCG license required...) They switched back to a gasoline powered outboard, I think because of lack of power in the electric during windier days, and lack of amphours in the batteries. C-Otter Tom or Mystery Girl Bill can correct me if this reason is not correct. Colby
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smckean (Tosca)



Joined: 18 Jan 2014
Posts: 974
City/Region: Guemes Island (Anacortes)
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Tosca
Photos: Tosca
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm about to get some real world experience with a battery powered largish boat in a couple of years. As many of you know, I live on Guemes Island which is directly north of Anacortes (gateway to the San Juan Islands in WA state). We Guemanians (as I call us) depend on a small county ferry (20 cars) to cross the 1/2 mile channel to Anacortes. Most of us go once or twice a week since there are essentially no stores or services on the island.

Our ferry is 40 years old and having major maintenance issues. The county decided to replace it with an all electric boat (28 cars) for many reasons (including higher likelihood of securing federal or state grants -- sort of a pilot project....proof of concept). The state is particularly interested given its large fleet of ferry boats. Our new boat is based on Norway's experience with their all electric fleet (something like 100 boats). Back when this decision was made, the Guemes ferry would have been the very first all electric vehicle ferry in the nation; but now 4 years later, that honor went elsewhere. Just a month ago we were awarded a $14MM state grant which completed the $24MM funding package we needed to build the boat. It is fully designed and construction will start soon with an in-service date sometime in 2025.

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Purchased Tosca in 2014
Re-powered to Yammi 200 in 2015
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20778
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hontoon Island State Park on the St. John's River in Fl. depends on a ferry to get all equipment and personal onto the Island. I have gone there 8 years, and the last two the electric outboards (about 8 hp) had been retired, and the State Park had gone back to gasoline outboard motors!

The electric motors were a failed experiment. They did not hold up to multiple daily use 365 days a year. It is a far different use than on the occasional dinghy or even as a Kicker on a larger boat, of the use of an electric outboard motor, vs the grueling multiple times a day--on weekends almost constantly running use.

Outboards in this type of use, often get from 4,000 to over 8,000 hours before being retired. Battery maintenance is not cheap--and replacement is expensive.

I had to make a decision about what type of kicker I was going to use on the 18' Caracal cat (no tunnel drag, and slender hulls). I went with a 2.5 hp Suzuki (which makes a lot more noise than the Torqeedo 1103. The Torqeedo still wins in the weight category--in that although total weight is the same as Suzuki (30#) the Torqeedo breaks down into parts which are no more than 12# each--making them easier to handle on a dinghy.

(I would disagree with Billie about the noise. With the Torpedo you are right next to the motor--with the larger outboards, in the C Dory you are in the cabin. Sure you may not hear them from the helm, but I can guarantee that sitting next to the 50 or 150 hp outboard it will be noisier than the "whine" of the Torqeedo. One of the primary uses of the Torqeedo had been on a 9 1/2 air floor dinghy when photographing birds. The electric motor does not frighten the birds as any motors we have used.

I can see the use of the electric outboard on dinghy and inboards on "cocktail cruisers" such as the ELCO or Duffy, which have been around for many years. As. for a kicker--they just don't have the range.

OK you buy the 48 volt 100 amp hour battery. How are you going to recharge it when cruising? I have not owned an e-Propulsion Spirit 1.0 and don't know if it can be recharged from 12 volts, but the Torqeedo can be, and it was often recharged when running the outboard as we recharged the 200 amp hours of Battle Born house battery.

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Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL
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croakz



Joined: 21 Sep 2020
Posts: 104
City/Region: Seattle
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1997
C-Dory Model: 22 Angler
Vessel Name: Jolly Blue
Photos: Jolly Blue
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
OK you buy the 48 volt 100 amp hour battery. How are you going to recharge it when cruising? I have not owned an e-Propulsion Spirit 1.0 and don't know if it can be recharged from 12 volts, but the Torqeedo can be, and it was often recharged when running the outboard as we recharged the 200 amp hours of Battle Born house battery.


I have a Victron 12/12 18A DC to DC smart charger going to a bank of 2 x 100AH lifepo4s now. I use those to charge an Ecoflow Delta Mini via a 12v to 24v step up.

If I added 48V battery, I'd probably just get a 48V AC charger and plug it into my Ecoflow to charge on the water. And then I could also that AC charger when shore power is available. Charger loss efficiencies aside, it'd be a simple solution.

I also have a 12V charger for my ePropulsion, but I wanted the ability to use it longer than the 25Ah battery that comes with it. Thus the larger 48V battery. I don't think you can run a Torqueedo or ePropulsion off straight 12V.
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Roamad



Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 70
City/Region: Isleton
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1988
C-Dory Model: 16 Angler
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently explored this quite a bit while working on repowering my 16 CD. The most promising option seemed to be a company in Seattle called Pure Watercraft. They make a very sleek 50hp-equivalent electric outboard and their people were very helpful in walking me through the potential. (They recently signed a partnership deal with General Motors — imagine that!)

Anyway, much of their testing was done with boats similar to mine in length and weight. They estimated I could see 7 hours of run time at 4-6 mph, with enough top end to reach planing speed (resulting in significantly less run time, of course). The weight of the motor/battery package is very similar to a 50hp gas outboard & fuel tank.

The total package would have cost near $20k, however. So I ended up going with a used 4-stroke EFI motor, which set me back about $5,500 installed.

I know the OP asked about using a kicker-size electric outboard. But I thought this was useful info for comparison anyway. Here’s a link to the Pure Watercraft motor:

https://www.purewatercraft.com/product/pure-outboard/

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1988 16’ C-Dory Angler, 2007 Mercury 60hp EFI
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ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 3358
City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BillE wrote:
… or any possibilities of fire. ...


Plenty of examples of electric cars on fire. Just search YouTube.

Chevy says not to park your new Bolt in your garage because of the fire risk.
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LesR



Joined: 05 May 2010
Posts: 162
City/Region: St. Louis
State or Province: MO
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Intuition
Photos: Intuition
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the boat we saw in Auke Bay last July, which appears to be a practical (albeit slow) electric cruiser. They made the trip from Bellingham to Ketchikan in 20 days, roughly double the time it took us. Alex told me they could run continuously during the day at 5 knots using power from their solar panels. Faster than that or in low light conditions ate into their available battery power.




Link to Devlin's site that includes more detail.
https://devlinboat.com/solar-sal-27-the-latest-launch-from-our-shop/

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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20778
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I have a Victron 12/12 18A DC to DC smart charger going to a bank of 2 x 100AH lifepo4s now. I use those to charge an Ecoflow Delta Mini via a 12v to 24v step up.

If I added 48V battery, I'd probably just get a 48V AC charger and plug it into my Ecoflow to charge on the water. And then I could also that AC charger when shore power is available. Charger loss efficiencies aside, it'd be a simple solution.


I use a Sterling 30 AM B to B charger, and that is just enough usually to keep up with two 100 amp hour batteries use for chest freezer/refrigerator. You will have to run a very long time with the Victron (I have the Orion in my second portable setup I use for the SUV refer, so I know what its characteristics are.) You are not going to be keeping up unless there is minimal use of the 48 volt power supply. There is going to be a moderate amount of loss with use of chargers, inverters, etc. You will rapidly deplete the "EcoFlow DELTA Mini's" battery with the 48 volt charger--almost like perpetual motion...the numbers just don't add up.

Quote:
I also have a 12V charger for my ePropulsion, but I wanted the ability to use it longer than the 25Ah battery that comes with it. Thus the larger 48V battery. I don't think you can run a Torqueedo or ePropulsion off straight 12V.


The Torqeedo charges on 12 volts--and can be charged by either another power source, including solar when running. That may not be "running" off 12 volts, but 12 volt power source is providing the charging to keep the battery topped off. Torqeedo battery nominal voltage is 29.6 volts. Early on Torqeedo Australia did an open ocean run with the Torqeedo (I believe the 1103) of 30 miles. They had solar panels on a Bimini type of structure. During the height of the day, the net draw was zero from the battery and as I recollect they were doing about 2.5 knots...

From the Torqeedo manual:
Quote:
According to section 6.4.2 on page 79 of the Travel outboard User Manual,
"Charge using a DC power supply in the range of 9.5 V to 50 V.
The DC power supply must be able to provide at least 4 A.
Use the Torqeedo 12/24 V charging cable (item number 1128-00) for charging."

"The battery can be charged during use (charge and discharge at the same time). The power display shows only the power being drawn from the battery in this case. If the charging current is greater than the current drawn by the motor, the power display shows 0 W and the battery is being charged. The charge status display takes into account the charging current as well as the current drawn by the motor."
.
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croakz



Joined: 21 Sep 2020
Posts: 104
City/Region: Seattle
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1997
C-Dory Model: 22 Angler
Vessel Name: Jolly Blue
Photos: Jolly Blue
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
You are not going to be keeping up unless there is minimal use of the 48 volt power supply. There is going to be a moderate amount of loss with use of chargers, inverters, etc. You will rapidly deplete the "EcoFlow DELTA Mini's" battery with the 48 volt charger--almost like perpetual motion...the numbers just don't add up.


Hi Bob,
My goal is not to keep up, it’s to last longer than the battery that comes with it. I could get a spare ePropulsion battery, but an external lifepo4 seemed more versatile. I guess I could do 12v @ 400ah vs 48v @ 100ah, but 48v is native to the ePropulsion. It’s not dissimilar to you using a torqeedo and charging over 12v, it’d not going to keep up either. At least not at 1000 watts. But it prolongs it.

- tom
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20778
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yandina makes the "Trollbridge" battery charger for 24 and 36 volts. She might give you advice, find a way to modify one of the stock units or make a 48 volt one for you. I suspect that there are a number of other 48 volt applications where this would be utilized, if one wanted to charge a group of batteries in parallel, and use in series.

I am not certain what year Honda 90 you have, but those prior to 2006/07 were only 17 amps 12 volt output. A certain amount is necessary for the engine and boat's electronics...not a lot left over for battery charging..
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South of Heaven



Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 1459
City/Region: Sharon
State or Province: MA
Photos: Blue Water
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck OP. I would say the CD hull would not be ideal for that. It's a planing hull.

I guess maybe on a quiet, inland canal it could work with winds of less than 5 knots.

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2005 Silverton 35 Motoryacht (Twin 385 Crusaders) (SOLD 6/20)

2000 Camano 31 Troll (Volvo TAMD41p) (SOLD 2/19)

2007 C Dory 25' Cruiser (200 hp Suzuki, sold 7/17)

2003 C Dory 19' Angler (80 hp Yamaha, sold 7/16)

1995 C Dory 16' Angler (40 hp Yamaha, sold 2/16)
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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 12632
City/Region: Sequim
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

galiano wrote:
Bob, understood re wanting a longer narrower hull. Are there any specific hulls out there you think would make a good base for this kind of project? Something like a modern Monterey Clipper? (Is anyone building those?)


Check out the "Allweather26" for a canoe hull.

Allweatherboats.com

Harvey
SleepyC Moon

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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

galiano wrote:
Bob, understood re wanting a longer narrower hull. Are there any specific hulls out there you think would make a good base for this kind of project? Something like a modern Monterey Clipper? (Is anyone building those?)


Check out the "Allweather26" for a canoe hull.

Allweatherboats.com

Harvey
SleepyC Moon
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