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bobjarrard



Joined: 03 Oct 2010
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City/Region: Boulder City
State or Province: NV
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 9:34 pm    Post subject: Hate to preach but (funny thing for a pastor to say but...) Reply with quote

A Lake Powell boater is dead after jumping into the lake to assist his child who was struggling to stay above the water.
California resident Phil Chiang, 49, rented a ski boat at Wahweap Marina on Thursday for a day touring the lake with his family, according to a release from Glen Canyon National Recreation Area. Around 1 p.m. they stopped in a cove near Warm Creek Bay, where two children went swimming without life jackets. After one began struggling, Chiang, also without a life jacket, jumped in to help. After assisting the two kids back on board, he slipped underwater and did not resurface, the National Park Service reported The children’s mother flagged down passing boats and called for help on a marine-band radio. Several boaters stopped to help and dove down looking for Chiang. He was brought to the surface after at least 10 minutes underwater. The rescuers took him to the beach to perform CPR, but they could not resuscitate the victim, who was pronounced dead at the scene.
Besides the park service, personnel from Kane County Sheriff’s Office and Utah State Parks responded to the emergency. Chiang’s is just one of many drowning deaths to occur this summer on Utah lakes. Most if not all of these deaths could have been prevented had the victims been wearing personal flotation devices, according to Utah State Parks. Deer Creek and Pineview reservoirs, also popular boating destinations, have seen at least four drownings this summer in which the victims entered the water without life jackets.
Bob Jarrard
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hardee



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sad, Really sad to see that happen. Lesson -- If the kids had had theirs on He might never have had to go into the water. One of the most important lessons I learned and taught in WSI classes was that you use any device possible except joint the victim in the water UNLESS you want to be come a victim.

PFD's on, ALWAYS.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon


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tsturm



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never been swimming with a life jacket on. Maybe the beer & weed had something to do with dad drowning? The whole story might make more sense???
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bobjarrard



Joined: 03 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:12 am    Post subject: I did not see that is was under the influence but......... Reply with quote

-- I did not look further into the incident so do not know if there were other factors but I can tell you that just the heat at Powell can reduce your ability to think, I spent two weeks there on a small houseboat with no AC and I did not move too much in the middle of the day other than into and out of the water which for some is a shock.
-- The main point was not the dad, I do not swim with a lifejacket on either but that it all started with kids who look to be weak swimmers at best. If there had been no start to the matter, the end would have not happened.
-- We all hate the throwable seat cushions, but two of those here could have been tossed to the kids while dad but on a PFD.
-- By the way, at Mead there are no GG requirements as in none. I think Powell is the same. Many boaters have not even got a fire extinguisher on board. At the Boulder Bay ramp they have free life jackets hanging for any one to take, that is how bad it is.
-- Alaskans are tough but I wear a PFD when open boating up there, no a bulky one but a low profile.
See ya.
Bob Jarrard
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ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: I did not see that is was under the influence but....... Reply with quote

bobjarrard wrote:
... At the Boulder Bay ramp they have free life jackets hanging for any one to take, that is how bad it is. ...


I see that free life jacket thing at a lot of ramps and small boat launches. It's not something unique to Lake Powell. Not present at every ramp though.
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robhwa



Joined: 04 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tsturm wrote:
I have never been swimming with a life jacket on. Maybe the beer & weed had something to do with dad drowning? The whole story might make more sense???

Drugs aside, participating in a water rescue, particularly dealing with kids in the water kicking and screaming, is likely to be very different than just swimming. I can imagine how excited everyone was, and the drowning victim likely had some health issues. A "throwable" tossed into the water likely would have made a difference, and was legally part of the rental, almost certainly. Rule 1 of lifesaving courses is to not become a victim yourself, as an excited person in the water is likely to grab and try to climb on top of you. Excited victims grab and hold onto anything near them, guaranteed. Part of my own training was to "rescue" a child victim (actually a small woman) whose job was to try and bind you and drown both of you. I couldn't even begin to rescue her, and with her arms around my neck and legs wrapped around my torso, I couldn't have saved myself. I couldn't do a thing if she didn't cooperate some. We even practiced knocking the victim out with a punch. Don't become a drowning victim yourself like this poor guy did. You don't want to be a dead hero.

In fact, I did a water rescue on the Nisqually River just a few days ago. A kayaker managed to get himself up against a "sweeper" and flipped. He didn't have a spray skirt, so the boat filled with water, but had internal flotation so it didn't sink. He did have a life jacket on. Thus, instead of being pulled under the obstacle, he bobbed until he was pushed around it. I told him to hang onto the boat so we wouldn't have to rescue two items as we picked up his numerous things not tied down. There was a good 300 yards of open water so we had a little time. The current on the Nisqually was exciting, maybe 5 or 6 knots. He couldn't do anything. After getting his floaties, I threw a rope to him and paddled to the shore and held it so he swung to the side into shallow water. I don't think atom bombs could have wrenched that rescue rope from his hands. If anyone ever finds themselves in this situation, immediately think of throwing something, a cooler if not a life jacket or other throwable. Launch yourself as a last resort. My throwable floating rescue rope, now with several water rescues to its credit, gets a prominent place in my boat's cockpit, for sure.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:06 pm    Post subject: Federal and state requirements remain in effect for NP & Reply with quote

Truly a tragedy. Unfortunately deaths on Lake Powell are more common than many realize. The average number of drownings on Lake Powell is SIX!

Unfortunately we are been present when Park Service, and Law enforcement are doing scans to locate and retrieve the bodies of those who have died....!!!.

There are many other ways to die on Lake Powell. Certainly heat stroke is one. Diving off cliffs, falling off trails, Carbon Monoxide poisoning, having rocks fall on boats, and flash flood are other common causes of death.

Quote:
By the way, at Mead there are no GG requirements as in none. I think Powell is the same. Many boaters have not even got a fire extinguisher on board.

In National Parks and recreational areas all Federal and State laws apply, there is no exception for either Lake Powell or Lake Mead.


From Utah State boating brochure:
Quote:
Boats 16 to 39 feet in length must carry at least one throwable PFD; vessels 40 feet and greater must carry at least two throwable PFDs. Type IV PFDs need to be stored in plain and open view where they can be quickly accessed.
Passengers 12 years of age and younger must wear a properly sized and approved Type I, II, III or V
life jacket when the boat is in operation. Type V life jackets must be used according to the requirements on the approval label. Children do not have to wear life jackets while inside an enclosed cabin area of boats 19 feet or more in length.
Each person being towed on water skis or other devices or operating or riding on a PWC, must wear a properly sized and approved life jacket.
On rivers, every person on any vessel including inner tubes must wear a properly sized and approved life jacket. For persons older than 12 years of age, life jackets may be loosened or removed only while on designated flat water river sections. Contact the Utah State Parks Boating Program for a listing of designated flat water river sections in Utah.


From National Park service brochure on Lake Powell boating:

Quote:
ll boaters must follow federal and state regulations and carry all required equipment on their vessels.

United States Coast Guard www.uscgboating.org
Utah State Parks www.stateparks.utah.gov
Arizona Game and Fish www.azgfd.com


Lake Mead web site:
Quote:
BOATING REGULATIONS Lake Mead:
Nevada Department of Wildlife (NDOW) is the boating safety, education and enforcement agency for the state of Nevada. The boating safety office is responsible for boating education, safety and law enforcement. Their ultimate goal is to create a safe boating environment and experience for Nevada boaters. That means helping boaters learn about the basics of boating safety, including proper fitting lifejackets and the rules of the water. Anyone born after January 1, 1983 is required by Nevada law to take a boating safety course. Also, children under 13 must wear a life jacket on all vessels....

BOAT SAFETY EQUIPMENT REQUIREMENTS FOR LAKE MEAD
Before you head out on the lake, make sure you have the legally required equipment.
Life jackets / PFDs for everyone on board (Type I, II, III), throw cushion (Type IV) with 30′ of line attached, Fire extinguisher (Type B-1), back flame protection system on inboard and stern drive boats, audible distress signal (air horn, whistle, or bell). Other required items include: ventilation system / blower, muffler on your engine, navigation lights for night cruising.


If you have an emergency call the Park Service not 911. Also remember that the majority of Lake Powell does not have cell service.
Contact:NATIONAL PARK SERVICES:

General Information: 928.608.6200
Emergency: 928.608.6300
Emergency: 800.582.4351

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Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
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bobjarrard



Joined: 03 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:36 pm    Post subject: Bob - You are right - sorts Reply with quote

Bob, I went back to my files and saw that you are right about the rules sorta - I have a 13 foot tinny and when I registered the boat here in Nevada I asked about what the regulations where on Mead both there at the State office and later at the Lake with the Rangers. I just checked the Nevada State boating site and it clearly says only a PFD is required on boats under 16 feet. So sorry for the miss-post on 16' plus boats. By the way, I was after the size and type of extinguisher needed as my boat though having been used for many years on Mead had nothing but a worn out throwable seat cushion. Now this may well be a case of conflicting government regulations. Here is the link and you have to go to page 34 to get to the "Required Equipment" section - bit late but they do cover getting fees and other good stuff in the front:
http://www.ndow.org/uploadedFiles/ndoworg/Content/Boat/Boating_Safety/2018%20Nevada%20Boating%20Law%20Handbook.pdf
Thanks for keeping us strait on all this, it is a job for life!!!
Bob Jarrard
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Federal regulations are also in force, unless the State requirement is greater or gives a specific exemption. Lake Mead and Lake Tahoe are considered "Federal Waters". As is Lake Powell

Last month, a new federal law went into effect that requires boat operators to wear an engine cut-off switch (ECOS) when boating on federal waters, like Lake Tahoe or Lake Mead. The law is not much of a change for Nevada boaters, however, as the state has mandated the use of the device since 2007.

For fire extinguisher this is: Less than 26' 1 B-1 For any motor boat. Not required on sail or paddle only. Of course there are some specific requirements for SUPB, Also class III life jackets should be worn--some states may requirement "at hand"

. Nevada state boating laws handbook

Federal boating regulations.


State boating law--geared mostly for investigations.

state by state regs A dash board of boating requirements. This is an interesting site for those of us who boat in many different states.

2020 statistics reports. (Some slight changes from prior reports)
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bobjarrard



Joined: 03 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:47 pm    Post subject: Crow my favorite meal? I now have no idea what the rules are Reply with quote

-- Well, after searching the web for an hour I can safely say that the various rules for Mead by the overlapping governmental agencies (I did not mention Powell) are more than confusing. There is one place where it says "No signaling devices are required on Nevada waters." but then again in another place it says that Mead requires you follow both states' rules and then elsewhere it says at night you need signal devices and just about every other combination of stories and tales. All that being said, no hard in being compliant with all rules you can find and then get a CG inspection sticker!
-- A bit of spouting off, easy on the flamethrower! We live in an interesting time when we make so many rules that no one is code legal, we are all lawbreakers. This creates at times an attitude among some or even many that they will do as they please. You should not have to be a rocket scientist or highly literate to follow the rules of the land. The vehicle code in California is almost 500 pages long. The Federal Tax Code is approaching 100,000 pages. We are all not as bright as Doctor Bob nor do many of us have the staying power to figure all this out. We have legislated the fun out of lots of things my generation did all the time. Frankly, within limits, I want to be as dumb as I wish and not be babysat 24/7/365 till I die and then someone has to figure out the complicated and confusing rules for my dead body. There is a great divide between self-harm and other-harm. I should be able to limit my tort rights and not have to pay so much to do certain at risk activities to CYA others.
-- Well, that being said I am going to take a nap, this has exhausted me!
Bob Jarrard
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localboy



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tsturm wrote:
I have never been swimming with a life jacket on.


Me either, although I am not nearly as strong and in shape as I once was. Even my 38 year old son commented on how he "got winded" just swimming in a lake this past week. Swimming, surfing etc was something we did regularly in Honolulu. But that was 2 decades ago. As Clint Eastwood once said, "A man's got to know his limitations".

That said, this person is a hero. A true hero. Not like some actor or athlete.

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hardee



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

robhwa wrote:

Quote:
". . . Rule 1 of lifesaving courses is to not become a victim yourself, as an excited person in the water is likely to grab and try to climb on top of you. Excited victims grab and hold onto anything near them, guaranteed. Part of my own training was to "rescue" a child victim (actually a small woman) whose job was to try and bind you and drown both of you. I couldn't even begin to rescue her, and with her arms around my neck and legs wrapped around my torso, I couldn't have saved myself. I couldn't do a thing if she didn't cooperate some."


I have to admit it has been a long while since I taught Water Safety Instructor courses, but back then it was standard practice to teach that you never approach a drowning person on the water surface. OK to swim to them, but at 2+ body lengths out, you dive, and approach from well below the surface, 6 feet depth or so. Then as you make contact, first contact was with the legs, catch them and spin the victim so they are facing away from you. AS you do that, you are rising to the surface, and as you surface you reach over their shoulder, and across the chest and lock them in a semi headlock type grip, so they cannot turn towards you. Then you tell them who you are and what you are doing ("I'm going to take you to shore") NO more no less. I have used that technique 3 times, in a lifetime of being on, around or near the water. When done right it works perfect on big (6'4" and 300# and little, 4'5" 85# 5th grader.) The most often used technique is by far the safest. A throw cushion or a pole extension.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon

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hardee



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't know if any of you are familiar with "Haulover Inlet" videos, but if you want to see everything wrong about boating with passengers, not using PFD's or common sense in many cases, and a general disregard for logic and safety practices, you can find all of that there.

There are multiple video's, done by several different YouTube production filmers, some with commentary and some just occasion notation. There is some interesting boat handling, true, but also some incredibly stupid acts that go along with putting life and limb in jeopardy. Kind of like what to watch to see what not to do.

Try this for a start:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiqsZWVj4f0
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by4-VWrgx0w

You will also see, big boats, and big power and some impressive boat handling in some cases, good and some in the unbelievably "other" category.

There is a whole range of choices. Hope we make the best right one.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon

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DayBreak



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hardee wrote:
Don't know if any of you are familiar with "Haulover Inlet" videos, but if you want to see everything wrong about boating with passengers, not using PFD's or common sense in many cases, and a general disregard for logic and safety practices, you can find all of that there.



Thanks Harvey for posting these videos. Scary to watch some of those open bow boats take on water like that. Any more water and I think they would roll and sink. The Cat did well going through the inlet and cut through the water so easily. Wonder how a C-Dory TomCat would do with the same water.

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hardee



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Gary, It is evidence that size and power have some advantages, but mostly after a few hours of watching that it makes me glad I don't boat there.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon

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