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clayhubler



Joined: 03 Aug 2019
Posts: 280
City/Region: La Center
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Hammerhead
Photos: Hammerhead
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:47 pm    Post subject: Propane locker install Reply with quote

I am putting a propane locker in the port lazarette on hammerhead. We are going go go with a propane cooktop in the galley and a forced air diesel heater to replace the aging wallas 95d.

Here is a link to the abyc lpg systems standards. Is this the correct document?
https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/001/abyc.A-01.1993.pdf


Quote:
1.12.5 Lockers shall not be used for storage of any other
equipment.


I want to also put the diesel tank in the lazarette. Is this a violation?

From a practical sailor article:

Quote:
An LPG locker must be a dedicated space. That means all non-LPG system items-shackles, tools, etc.-must be removed as they can easily damage system components.


It seems that the rule is to protect the lpg equipment from damage. I don't see any harm on having the diesel tank in there too if everything is secured. Thoughts?

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Robert H. Wilkinson



Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 1231
City/Region: Port Ryerse
State or Province: ON
Vessel Name: Romakeme IV
Photos: Romakeme IV
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure about the abyc guides but I know for your home insurance propane and diesel storage tanks must be separated by xxx feet.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20779
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The above standards are 1993. There are at least 2020 ABYC standards, Unfortunately it is about $245 a year to join as a business. I had a membership years ago.

I have had LPG cooking stoves on several of my larger cruising boats. The LPG lockers were as per specs: only for LPB cylinders--all of mine were aluminum tanks. All of these LPG lockers drained overboard at their lowest point--and were nowhere near the cockpit or cabin companionway. They all had a pressure valve after the regulator, they all had solenoid valves to shut off the LPG from the galley when the stove was not in use. They all had bilge sniffers; one was under the appliance. The other was in a dry part of the bilge. I used specified hose. Protection for the hose where it went thru the bulkhead.

I have seen boats with LPG water heaters and refrigerators: None of these could pass ABYC standards. If the insurance company had known about these installations they would most likely not be covered.

I have seen several vessels blow up, one catch on fire, several others just launch there people aboard into the air--and fortunately none were killed.

I made it a rule, the LP gas was off unless you were cooking. We had CO sensors in several places in the boat. If we were leaving the boat for any length of time, the valves on the tanks were shut off. There was no automatic transfer switch.

Here is a link to an article by Steve D'Antonio on LP installations. I believe that this is about 6 or 7 years old.

This is another article by a Canadian Surveyor with some good points.

I am not a fan of LPG in a C Dory. I do carry two 1# canisters for an emergency single burner stove, if for some reason I were to loose my induction burner and microwave cooking implements. Those are stored in side PVC pipe, open at the bottom and are in the engine splash well. I put silicone grease on the threads, and put bronze top caps on the cylinders. I use the stove in the cockpit if necessary.

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Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL
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clayhubler



Joined: 03 Aug 2019
Posts: 280
City/Region: La Center
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Hammerhead
Photos: Hammerhead
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
The above standards are 1993. There are at least 2020 ABYC standards, Unfortunately it is about $245 a year to join as a business. I had a membership years ago.


Seems like a bad idea for abyc to make people pay $245 a year to make their boats safe...

Thank you thataway for the links, I had seen the canadian guys page already. He has some good commentary...

It still seems to me there would be no harm in having the diesel tank in there, provided it is secured and cannot damage the lpg equipment, but as the guidelines say the locker is to be used for no other purpose, I am going to consider other options.
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pcg



Joined: 31 Aug 2018
Posts: 405
City/Region: Sherwood
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Quest
Photos: pcg
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also converting a lazarette to a propane locker so I can cook with propane. Because I don't like the smell of diesel and also didn't want to add a third fuel I've decided to heat with propane as well.
https://www.propexheatsource.com/

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B~C



Joined: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 2858
City/Region: Bend
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Blue~C
Photos: Blue~C
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

check out the propane locker in this video, I'm pretty sure these folks know what they're doing.........I will be buying this boat.........when I win the Lotto

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ranger+tug&&view=detail&mid=FFECED443A241FDDF9DBFFECED443A241FDDF9DB&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dranger%2Btug%26FORM%3DHDRSC3

I converted my lazarette for propane storage, it has room for two small tanks (I don't recall the size) and not much else. I've been running the HS2000 propex furnance for a number of years now. I wish I had bought the HS 2800 but the HS2000 takes the edge off. I like that my fuel tank can sit for extended periods and still be ready to work at the turn of a valve.

I have some pics on page 2 of the B~C album

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1999 22' boaterhome
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clayhubler



Joined: 03 Aug 2019
Posts: 280
City/Region: La Center
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Hammerhead
Photos: Hammerhead
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Ken,

First thing I noticed is there is an aux fuel tank inside that propane locker!! Isn't that in violation???

I remember you had put in the propane furnace and I have checked out your photos in the BC album. I wish I had the older molded fiberglass doors like you. I got two 5# tanks to fit in the lazarette but since I have the smaller hatches I had to get the manchester tanks, which are narrower, but taller. I'm going to modify the bottom of my lazarette to accommodate them.

Did you head south yet or are you still hangin around these parts?
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T.R. Bauer



Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 1726
City/Region: Wasilla
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Whisperer
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love propane - not sure I'd love it on my CD 22 though. Diesel furnaces and cooktops have come a long way.
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clayhubler



Joined: 03 Aug 2019
Posts: 280
City/Region: La Center
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Hammerhead
Photos: Hammerhead
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TR,
The wife hates the glass top diesel stoves. I have no choice...

Well, guess I could choose to not get fed Disgust
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T.R. Bauer



Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 1726
City/Region: Wasilla
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Whisperer
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha! Nope, you sure don't Smile
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
First thing I noticed is there is an aux fuel tank inside that propane locker!! Isn't that in violation???


ABYC is not law--it is "best practices". If this was a CG inspected vessel, then it might be a non acceptable practice.

There are two features I see missing from the propane system on that Ranger 31. First is I don't see a solenoid valve so that the tank and be turned on and off from the galley. Second I don't see evidence of an explosive gas "sniffer" under both the stove and the bilge. Both of those items are "best practice" and what I have always had on any boat with LPG aboard.

Just because a builder builds hundreds or even thousands of boats, does not mean that they use "best practices". For example one of the biggest issues with C Dory and cored hulls could be totally eliminated if the installation of any penetration thru the cored structure was sealed off either by going thru a solid glass laminate, or other non.permiable material, such as epoxy plugs. Why don't they do this (and a few high end builders do)? Because it costs more money and is labor intensive. Thus necessitating a higher price tag.

A few years aback we had decided to buy another trawler--Specifically a Defever 49. We went to the DeFever owners gathering, and then spent 7 days with Curtis Stokes as our Buyer's broker. We looked at all of the Defever 49's and even a few of the larger Defevers. We found several nice looking boats, within our budget. Problem was that every single one we looked at had significant deck rot. Could have been avoided with proper construction when built. There is a reason you can buy a 60' Defever for less than $190,000.
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clayhubler



Joined: 03 Aug 2019
Posts: 280
City/Region: La Center
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Hammerhead
Photos: Hammerhead
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
ABYC is not law--it is "best practices". If this was a CG inspected vessel, then it might be a non acceptable practice.


Does the USCG have regulations written up somewhere? I am really showing my ignorance here, but guess I didn't realize that abyc wasn't law. What would the CG do if they inspected that Ranger 31? I find it hard to believe that any brand new vessel sold in the US today would be in violation of any of the regs.

I have pretty much got the problem figured out that sparked this thread. I have found a diesel tank that will fit between my fuel tanks, so my port lazarette is going to be a dedicated propane locker.
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clayhubler



Joined: 03 Aug 2019
Posts: 280
City/Region: La Center
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Hammerhead
Photos: Hammerhead
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a abyc video on lpg systems:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD_S8PEi6n0
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20779
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I stated ABYC is only best practice. This is what surveyors go by. An inspected vessel carries passengers for hire, and have much tougher regulations than a recreational boat. CG only odes safety inspections--I suspect if they smelled propane odorant in the boat, then they might make an issue over it. But not on a routing safety inspections for life jackets, fire extinguishers, registration etc.I

I didn't review the entire video, but it looked good. Notice that they have a solenoid valve in the line as I suggested. I did't look further for sniffers. There are very rigid qualifications for the hose and how it is run.
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tomherrick
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An individual can join ABYC for $190.00 and gain online access to all of their standards plus discounts on their courses. The current A-1 is dated July 2018.
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