Uncle Norm's Orca Fin

[garyf]

I'm educating myself a bit on hydrofoils like Permatrim and so on and ran across a company named Uncle Norm's Marine Products. Does anyone here have experience with these products?

I'm intrigued with the design - it's more than just a hydrofoil, it also has prominent downward "rudders" that are supposed to benefit steering, particularly at low speeds.

This is the model that seems applicable to me if I went this route... also worth mentioning is that they have a no-drill "clamp" mounting option.

https://unclenormsmarineproducts.com/collections/fins/products/orca-performance-fin

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Gary, no experience with it, but to me that looks very much like a crudely made competitor to the Permatrim. I believe they will aid steering, but I’m not sure how much.

[ssobol]

[bobjarrard]

There is always the great debate of Kort Nozzles which if they have no function are zip in benefit for lots of $$$$$ In fishing communities I do see propeller rings/prop protectors on more than a few engines, especially smaller outboards.
I agree that in most instances, the Permatrim with Bennet trim tabs might be the Cadillac treatment - plus a skeg saver/fin guard or a Mac's Prop Saver or a tunnel hull or a midengined outboard design like the Calkin's Bartender or the Lavro Sea Dory. Is there any end to this madness???
PS: How long will words like "Cadillac" and ad lines like "Not your father's Oldsmobile" be with us? You can bet that the climate police will be after all dino fueled marine propulsion systems as soon as the battery costs come down a bit more. I guess some day we will be saying "Not your C-Brat Honda/Yamaha!" as we joy stick our way out of the slip or use the self-steer autopilot to go to the fuel dock that now only sells ice and bait.
Bob Jarrard

[garyf]

I can see the comparison to Permatrim... and Permatrim definitely does a better job cosmetically with paint match and so on - but the vertical rudder fins are much bigger than what they have on the Permatrim... that's what intrigues me, I suppose, as a significant boost in low speed handling would obviously be nice. I also appreciate that there's a drill-free option.

For those of you who have installed Permatrim - was there a noticeable improvement in low-speed handling? Or tracking with a cross wind? I see that Permatrim does have some vertical fin as well, but nowhere near as much.

It'd be interesting (to me) to see a side-by-side comparison of the two, but I haven't found anything like that.

Looks like the Orca Fin has been around for several years, so it's not just a flash in the pan.

[bobjarrard]

Just a thought, over the years there have been many add ons and doohickeys for outboards. You have to question why the manufacturer wouldn't design an optimum lower end to begin with and in fact the "Big Foot" models do that to a a degree as do the various shaft lengths (15, 20 and 25 for the most part). There there is the manual or powered trim/tilt on most motors. Then we also have jack plates, adjustable jack plates, Armstrong brackets, and more stuff. I think that anything that is extreme runs a risk. Too much torque on the lower cast anti-cavitation part runs the risk of metal failure. Anything hanging down catches stuff and slows down the motor/boat assembly. There are also trolling throttle controllers including drop down plates, idle adjusters that let you run at very low speeds and of course, bucket on a rope over the stern (don't laugh - I have seen them on boats hunting salmon in the PNW).
What would I do if I owned a C-DORY? Ask Dr. Bob what to do! I think he would give an OK to a single motor at or sorta maybe near the upper rating of the hull, perhaps a small stern mount trolling motor that can also power a dink, a regualr sized Permatrim if the combination of ballasting with stuff/motor adjustments does not solve the issue, maybe also/or Bennet (I see LENCO as a second in line) trim tabs with full controls/indicators at the helm, a preference for EFI over carbs, and having the prop pitched for all the variables including altitude/fuel octane, Also, skipper attitude and wants vs needs has to be addressed. If 5 MPH is your goal for most of your boating time, then your choices come real easy. Multiply the mission objectives and the tactical solutions tend to get complicated, expensive, requiring of extensive training, and often take the fun out of the game and add the bad word "WORK". Just my rambling thoughts here, no flaming on any product or choice other than I always thought that the plastic Dolphin Stabilizer was ugly!! Bob Jarrard (Please, someone with a nice C-DORY adopt me!)
Bob Jarrard

[ssobol]

[bobjarrard]

-- While the whole issue of engine rating plates has been hashed here a few times, we have good first person knowledge base here on the forum of what works on a C-DORY and I limited my comments to that brand. I have lots of history on Boston Whalers and a bit on tinniies (I own one right now - a 13' with an 8 hp merc).
-- Depending on the model year, an older 22 might have been designed and performed well with a 70hp 2-stroke. We see dual 40/45/50's, single 90's and lately bigger motors on newer boats. Dual 90's on 25's and all kinds of other mixes including that odd 16 with dual motors. Transom type seals the deal on shaft and motor length and you can get good advice from the better dealers like Matt at Kitsap. Here is my rule:
-- If you have to spend a lot of time and $$ to get a new vehicle of any kind to fulfil a normal design purpose, buy something else.
Does you 16 lean to the right or dip the bow? Have the passenger seat occupied by someone your size, shift the cooler, move the ground tackle, re-arrange the gas tanks, trim the motor properly for the conditions, re-locate the batteries, take heavy stuff off the cabin top, slow down a bit in the chop, watch for the wave talk (interval - heights - etc).
-- The best selling motorcycle of all time is the Honda Super Cub with over a million sold. The Toyota Corolla is #1 in the car world at about 44 million (that is 44,000,000!). Both still sold today and both have issues with the next one to roll off the line.
-- All this being said, my issue is not the difficulty in putting a good engine choice on a D-DORY but why there are core failures that cost lots of time and $$ to fix. Not just owner mistakes but factory mistakes. Personally, I like West System wood boats and tinnies.
-- Go to Alaska, the small boats are mostly aluminum. In that vein, I like the ACB's, especially the Stabicraft, used one for a week on the open water near Gustavus and with a 90HP Yammie, she would wide open all day long in rough water that would eat a C-DORY for lunch. Wet from bow spray+wind but otherwise, a very nice ride.
-- If is is stronger than what you bolt it onto, what gets bolted onto breaks, if the bolt thing is weaker than the mounting point, the thingee breaks. On really bad days, the whole mess fails. Structural engineering is not rocket science (Elon may be an exception) and when all else fails, use common sense - the only tool in the box that comes for free.
-- See ya.
Bob Jarrard

[garyf]

Appreciate the thoughts, ssobol & Bob J.

I can understand the purest "if it's so great, why didn't the manufacturer add it in the first place?" point of view - but my goodness, just look at our C-Dorys for the answer to that point. Are there any two on the planet that are exactly alike after they've been away from the factory for a few months?

Of course not, we like to tinker. And C-Dorys are a great platform to tinker on.

ssobol also makes good points about why the outboard mfrs don't go further.

I was hoping someone had actual experience with these... I don't see them as being "just a gadget"... they seem (to me) have pretty good potential to be useful.

I'm also hoping Bob A. eventually weighs in. I know he's an advocate of Permatrim. His comments (and others) prompted me to put Permatrim on the list of things to look into... and during that process, I found Uncle Norm.

Like I've already said, I like the idea of improving low speed maneuverability... I haven't (yet) mentioned one of the reasons why... my dad got into trouble maneuvering into a marina in windy conditions on Lake Tahoe - he ended up hitting another boat, damaging both boats (dad's boat being the boat I now have). Sadly, that was the last time he ever put the boat in the water. He got the damage fixed... but it then sat on the RV pad at his house for 8 years. I didn't witness the accident, and I'm sure he made mistakes that contributed to it... but I have no doubt improved low-speed maneuverability would have helped him... so I'm open-minded to things that can help in this area.

And Bob J... I do/did appreciate your stream of consciousness, but want to clarify that I'm not looking to repower by any stretch of the imagination - I've got a very solid 90 Yama with less than 50 hours that I'm very happy with... just looking to tinker and improve. Based on comments in here, Permatrim is an improvement, and I understand the physics behind that. As far as I can see, the Uncle Norm Orca Fin will do everything that the Permatrim will do + the added possibility of enhanced steering/tracking/low-speed handling. That's where I'm at.

[thataway]

I don't think the Permatrim adds any benefit to low speed steering. Engine trim affects that.

I have run several different foils on the antiventillation plate and the Permatrim works the best to get the bow down in chop (stern elevation). The foil should run just on the top of the water. That way there is minimal drag at planing speeds.

This Orca Fin, I have no experience with, but I would wonder if there is a bit more drag at higher speeds? It might help with low speed steering. We do know that there is a good rudder effect of the lower unit of the outboard alone when at displacement speeds and the use of a kicker, or even with the boat in neutral and drifting.

I agree that the best combination is the trim tabs with a Permatrim. I have owned boats which had neither, only trim tabs, and then added the Permatrim. The handling was defiantly better with the combination.

As for broken antiventillation plates--it is very rare with the Permatrim. Agree that some builders don't always seem to know what the best combination of motor/tabs is. It does vary by usage. Builders have to be price competitive. They almost all take some degree of shortcuts. (Ie not sealing core, or putting solid glass in the way of cleats etc. ).

[bobjarrard]

-- One big benefit in not owning a "real" boat is that I have no dog in the fight so I can say just about anything and the worst thing that can happen is that Doctor Bob will give me a dressing down (which I do not take as a light rebuke).
-- I agree that the cavitation plate on most outboards is quite strong and that the properly installed correct for the motor Permatrim will not compromise that area, it is impact loading on the skep and perhaps combined stress loading of the plate that can cause damage.
--Lots of cracked or broken bottom skegs out there, especially on river run boats (and log jumping southern boy outfits). The motor is held together for the most part with bolts, screws, and alignment pins - all of which are subject to shift movement and loosening from vibrations and cyclic loading (there is also joint sealer/gasket failure). Even paint can fail from being buffeted.
-- As I get older, I look more at assemblies and how they perform as an integrated design unit and I pay less attention to spot or specific fixes to problems that may not really exist or which can at times find the cure worse than the disease. The classic case of this is forward facing flood/spot lights on a boat with shiny stuff in the path of the light and the need to preserve night vision but still see the log in the water ahead. Best solution for me? Don't travel at night!
-- That being said, my EDC (EveryDayCarry) without fail includes a SureFire 6P Tactical light and an O-Light Mini! The SureFire will rob your night vision for a long time if you miss time the clicky cap push and hit your own eyes.
-- Want to try something for fun? Take any of the "trim helpers" in your hand, have someone else drive, roll down the window, and stick the unit out in the air stream at even 20 MPH (water density is far greater than that of air) and see how long you can hold onto the trim device as the vehicle speed is increased. Note the lever moment and the vibrations as they increase.
-- Don't forget that the forces of motor trim are passed through the motor to the transom and the adjoining areas.
-- I used to live a few doors away from the power race boat owner, Betty Cook. She and her husband were at the forefront of surface piercing drives for civilian boats. She once told me that engineering the steering and power delivery unit was not all that hard but it was difficult to design a boat stern that her drive system would not destroy when powered up offshore at racing speeds in big water.
-- I know that it is dangerous to say this but I do like a pretty Calkins Bartender with a fresh Kodiak FWC EFI Kodiak gas V8 or a Toland Super Jumbo with just the right amount of outboard (enough power but not too much weight).
-- See ya you BRATS!
Bob Jarrard

[starcrafttom]

I have had trim tabs on both boats and permatrim on my 22. I have had other fins on other boats over the years. Trim tabs are a must on my 27 as it had a constant lean at speed regardless of weight distribution. I believe they are as useful tool to meet missions and conditions as they change.

[starcrafttom]

Ok sorry its a uncle Norms. I thought bob was back to work or ran out of retirement money. LOL

[digger]

Any deep v boat will control better than a c-dory doing docking maneuvers, although having trim tabs at full down will improve the docking control. With that same full down tab on deep v’s you can often turn around the nose of the boat. I have had many boats with deep v and 4 c-dories. I still have my latest c-dory because I use it for fishing and like the cabin and stability. If I only did higher speeds, I would still have my Cruisers or Starcraft, because the ride is much smoother and chop response softer.

[bobjarrard]

Well, I have always thrown a rope (ooops - a line) to a nice young man on the dock who drags in one end or the other and then we walk her in - I cannot backup a trailer either and it takes about an hour to get the ball and hitch together. See ya. Bob jJrrard