The C-Brats Forum Index
HomeForumsMy TopicsCalendarEvent SignupsMemberlistOur C-DorysThe Brat MapPhotos

More Battery Testing I dare you to watch the whole thing.
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The C-Brats Forum Index -> Electrical and Wiring
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
jkidd



Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
City/Region: Northern, Utah
State or Province: UT
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Voyager
Photos: Voyager (JK)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:45 pm    Post subject: More Battery Testing I dare you to watch the whole thing. Reply with quote

New testing results for FLA, AGM and Li
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy3hga_P5YY

_________________
Jody Kidd
KE7WNG
Northern, Utah

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 3202
City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2009
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Traveler
Photos: C-Traveler and Midnight-Flyer
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't have time to watch it yet. But give me the bottom line. Am I a fool for just sticking with my three old style marine12vt deep cycle and starting batteries in my boat? Rolling Eyes Colby
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
jkidd



Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
City/Region: Northern, Utah
State or Province: UT
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Voyager
Photos: Voyager (JK)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

colbysmith wrote:
Didn't have time to watch it yet. But give me the bottom line. Am I a fool for just sticking with my three old style marine12vt deep cycle and starting batteries in my boat? Rolling Eyes Colby


From there tests use a starting battery for starting. LI is the most cost affective for the house. This guy is an engineer and explains it pretty well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 3202
City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2009
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Traveler
Photos: C-Traveler and Midnight-Flyer
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. I'll have to take a gander at that video later! Colby
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
DayBreak



Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 385
City/Region: Monmouth, Or.
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 2018
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: DayBreak
Photos: DayBreak
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for this video. With having a battery isolator, can one go with lithium as the house battery and use lead acid as the starting battery on a boat?
_________________
Gary F
DayBreak, 23 Venture, 2018 - present
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
jkidd



Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
City/Region: Northern, Utah
State or Province: UT
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Voyager
Photos: Voyager (JK)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You cannot safely charge the LI with the alternator so you have to remove the ACR and use a DC to DC Charger to charge the house battery.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
DayBreak



Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 385
City/Region: Monmouth, Or.
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 2018
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: DayBreak
Photos: DayBreak
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Jody.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
dgeorges



Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 177
City/Region: Highlands Ranch
State or Province: CO
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: FRESH FISH
Photos: FRESH FISH
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ran Li batteries in a 36V electric trolling motor all summer. UNBELIEVABLE. I'm changing over my house battery to a Li for next boating season, folks.
_________________
"Ain't no nookie like Chinookie"---Ray Troll

CD 22 Cruiser "FRESH FISH: 2018 to present.
CD 16 Angler "OPA": 2013 to 2019.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 18671
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jody,
Thank you for the link to the most interesting video. The main take away was of course that by his "standards" it was cheaper to have a LI than AGM, and a little cheaper than a Flooded Lead Acid (FLA) battery.

Aside from the cold part--which would rarely affect most of us in our C Dorys. He emphasized use of Watt Hours, vs Amp hours. He is absolutely correct.

The Li battery starts at about 13.4 to 13.6 volts, and remains above 12 volts until 90% discharged:
Below from Solacity web site:


If you look at the AGM or FLA battery the resting voltage is 12.6 to 12.8 and "50%" discharge is usually considered at 12.2 volts...If you take much more out of the battery, you begin to deteriorate the batteries longevity. Now in his tests he did take both AGM and FLA to 9 volts, and mentioned that they "recovered". It was not entirely clear that he was making the distinction between a battery under load at 12.2 volts, or a battery at resting state (that is no charge or discharge for at least 2 hours). The 12.2 volts being 50% discharged for a FLA is dependent on the that battery being at rest.

They used a setup almost identical to what I am using in my C Dory 25; That is two BattleBorn 100 amp hour batteries in parallel, to a Victron Multiplus 2000/80/50. This is a 2000 watt PSW inverter with an 80 amp charger. They changed the charging profile with the computer--it can be done with the computer (more flexibility) or with dip switches on the circuit board of the charger. Once set for LIFePO4-=in real use, you leave it there. The remote for the inverter can also set limits of power used for charging, if running off a generator.

I agree with Jody that a Bat to Bat charger is certainly the best way to charge the LiFePO4 battery. However, there are a lot of boaters who are just using the outboard charger--they never get the full amount of power available, and run some risk of damage. The internal Battery Management System (BMS) should prevent any over voltage damage. Many RV's are just using a timing device, with a automatic charging relay, where they let the alternator charge for a period of time (15 minutes, and the rest for 30 minutes to avoid over charging). For example my RV has a 200 amp alternator continuous duty rated, vs the 44 amp alternator of the Honda 150 and 17 amp alternator of the pre 2007 Honda 90.

As I was designing my system I was not "thinking" watt hours, but I was thinking about having the voltage above 12 volts until the last 10%--and I would never use that last 10%. I have my cut off voltage set at 12 volts on the inverter.

Also I feel that one has to have a commitment to using the boat either frequently off grid, wanting to own the boat for a long time, or just wanting to experiment. For the average C Dory owner, I am not sure that the LI battery is worth the cost. In our case, we run a microwave and induction burner for cooking--plus have chest freezer and refrigerator, so there is a constant 24 hour a day low amp draw of the chest freezer/refer, and the short term high amp draw of the microwave and induction burner. Thus we have the need for needing high capacity batteries. IF you just have a Wallas stove, or heater and LED lights, there is probably little need for the Li battery. We are also seeing the Li used frequency in boats which use trolling motors. A 36 volt 110# thrust trolling motor will run many hours on a 36 volt 50 amp battery bank. There is a huge weight savings, and the fishermen will have far more capacity--or use time.

The average FLA lasts 3 or so years. The LiFePO4 battery should last over 12 years, depending on use.

_________________
Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 11492
City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
Photos: SleepyC
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting ending. I knew the Li batteries would pay off in the long term use, (like 2 or 3 battery changes) but I was surprised to see the difference between the AGM and FLA's at the cost per watt.

I still think the bulk of the weight and size of the 12V to 12V charger and the rest of the set up for the Li's out weighs the advantage on a 22.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon


_________________
Though in our sleep we are not conscious of our activity or surroundings, we should not, in our wakefulness, be unconscious of our sleep.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 18671
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I still think the bulk of the weight and size of the 12V to 12V charger and the rest of the set up for the Li's out weighs the advantage on a 22.


Harvey, the battery to battery charger is fairly small--Perhaps you are looking at the inverters that they are using in the video. I see the cost of the whole system as more of an issue. Plus that these are not suitable for starting. Some of the other manufactures claim theirs are OK for starting outboards.....



The dimensions are (h x w x d): 5.1" x 7.3" x 3.2" and weight is 3#. If this had been available, I would have used it, rather than the Sterling, but they are both the same size.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 11492
City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
Photos: SleepyC
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, not so much just the 12 to 12, but the whole system, and it all needs to be "not in the weather" which meant inside, under the galley. Pretty much all full there already.

Here's another good source for info on the Li batteries.

https://www.pysystems.ca/

I spent quite a bit of time with Jeff, when I was thinking of going with the Li Ion batteries, (not Battle Born but...). I just decided that it wasn't going to work for me . . . yet.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 3202
City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2009
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Traveler
Photos: C-Traveler and Midnight-Flyer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You cannot safely charge the LI with the alternator so you have to remove the ACR and use a DC to DC Charger to charge the house battery.


That would be the deal breaker right there for me. I still think for my use and setup, the tried and true lead acid marine battery suffices. Cost, weight, efficiency, etc. Since I now run one group 24 marine starting battery for it's intended purpose, which works well, and two group 29 marine deep cycle batteries, I've had no problem running the boat's refrigerator, our Engle freezer, a cpap, anchor light and heater for 8-12 hours over night, and still wake up with 70% showing on the battery monitor. Oh, and also running a small fan overnight and reading for about an hour at night with the lights on. We do have all LED's in the lighting. Colby
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 18671
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hardee wrote:
Yes, not so much just the 12 to 12, but the whole system, and it all needs to be "not in the weather" which meant inside, under the galley. Pretty much all full there already.

Here's another good source for info on the Li batteries.

https://www.pysystems.ca/

I spent quite a bit of time with Jeff, when I was thinking of going with the Li Ion batteries, (not Battle Born but...). I just decided that it wasn't going to work for me . . . yet.


Indeed we all have to make our our decision. The link nor do any of his other videos appear to deal with the major issue which the link that Jodi posted. That per unit of power (watts) the Li battery had more, and was actually more cost effective, despite the price.

Beside the battery the cost is that of the DC to DC charger, which is in the $260 range, and I got a 10 amp LI battery charger on Amazon for about $100. It also measures voltage and amps in, during its phases. I use this for maintenance or low use charging off $100.

As I noted for most of the C Dorys it is not cost effective...

To address Colby's issues. "Group " size battery only refers to case size. There can be different amp hours or reserve capacity in these. The group 29 is a rare bird, and many manufactures don't list it. The usual amp hours is somewhere between 100 and 110 on a average--but as we saw in the video Jody posted, that FLA or AGM don't really have as much capacity as they claim...The ambient temps make a great deal of difference when dealing with freezers and ref. Generally both of these run in the 4 to 5 amps per hour, 60 amp hours over 24 hours per unit would not be unusual. X2 120 amp hours. Lets say you want to stay for 3 days in one place, and no solar--that would mean either running the motor some prolonged time, or a generator and a high capacity battery charger, to keep the generator run time down. At Powell, we found that 2 to 3 hours of 30 amp charging a day was necessary for our one chest unit. My charger allowed dialing in a charging amount . Even then we were not fully charging the battery. Even 100 watts of solar panel was not adequate. 200 watts of solar panel is what seems to be required to keep one of the. chest type units running.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
jkidd



Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
City/Region: Northern, Utah
State or Province: UT
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Voyager
Photos: Voyager (JK)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the LI battery installed for the house in the port lazarette and the dc to dc charger in the same space. I wanted to keep the wires as short as possible. So far these are the advantageís that I am seeing.

Battery weighs 29 lbs the AGM battery weighs 78 lbs for a savings of 49 lbs.
If there were 2 house batteries I would save 120 lbs for the same capacity.
I can now use nearly 100 percent of the rated capacity instead the 50 percent of lead acid.
The LI battery does not need to be charged back up to 100 percent within 24 hours like lead acid.
The LI battery likes to be kept between 30 to 90 percent with no ill effects.
I can run multiple days without charging and use the capacity of the battery if I like.
I can disable the dc to dc charger if the LI battery doesnít need charging.
Donít have to worry about over charging the house battery when batteries are combined.
The LI battery life is 3000 to 5000 cycles 4 to5 times the life of lead acid.

I will be doing the same charge test that I did with the AGM house battery to see the results.
While this is pricey up front over time it will pay for itself might not have to buy another house battery for 15 years or more and if I buy a new boat I can move that battery to the new one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The C-Brats Forum Index -> Electrical and Wiring All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
     Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum



Page generation time: 0.0936s (PHP: 79% - SQL: 21%) - SQL queries: 32 - GZIP disabled - Debug on