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westward



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: one vs two doses: At our hospital we are required to schedule and commit to both doses before taking either. This is per the vaccine manufacturer's recommendations and CDC guidelines. I am all for as widespread distribution as rapidly as possible but...these vaccines are developed and studied under very specific control conditions: you sure as hell don't want to go playing infectious disease scientist on your own, based on something you read on the internet, or saw on TV. (It helps to remember that most "news" content these days falls under the broad category of opinion, and is not scientifically vetted prior to publication).

My hope is that people choose to listen to the advice of the researchers and public health physicians who develop and administer these vaccines, and follow their directions. Talk to your trusted PCP if you're unsure. I really believe they know what they're talking about.

Happiness, health, and prosperity to you all!
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hardee



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

smckean (Tosca) wrote:
Scuppers wrote:
The reality is that if it works, the only ones going into the hospital will be those who declined.....

Ah, if only that were the case; but unfortunately it is not.

The reality is that there are some folks who can't take the vaccine for various reasons (allergies, medical conditions, etc). So those who refuse to be vaccinated put those who can't be vaccinated at risk.


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westward



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the vaccine refusal movement will rapidly dissipate in the face of rising immunity. I suspect vaccine compliance will quickly rise to levels similar to polio and other such vaccines. Many earlier skeptics are already lining up to "get theirs".

In the early days I look at refusers as doing compliers a favor: more for us, sooner!
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tomherrick
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Health care workers and bar keepers are both here to make us feel better - so I get it... Very Happy
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Scuppers



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scuppers wrote:
The reality is that if it works, the only ones going into the hospital will be those who declined.....

Quote:
Ah, if only that were the case; but unfortunately it is not.

The reality is that there are some folks who can't take the vaccine for various reasons (allergies, medical conditions, etc). So those who refuse to be vaccinated put those who can't be vaccinated at risk.


That logic seems sound, but does not recognize where we are today, versus where want to be.

I agree that some people cannot be vaccinated. I am saying that the greatest benefit occurs when the most people are vaccinated. Your risk of infection does not change if you are a member of that group other than that it goes down if there are fewer carriers. More vaccinated people should equate to fewer carriers, and create fewer exposures. Anyone who is vaccinated reduces risk to that unprotectable group, and all groups. Herd immunity is a pipe dream at present.

So mask, distance and don't allow people who are not vaccinated to be in your orbit, as soon as that is possible.

My company is going to impose a requirement to be vaccinated. We will probably lose a few people.

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Foggy



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, let's see which camp seems best until we all fall into the abyss. Is there a
way out starting now?

Camp 1.: I do what is best for me because I'm 'free'. To hell with everyone else.

Camp 2.: The President said so and I'm with him.

Camp 3.: I'm for burning it all down no matter what the cost.

Camp 4.: I don't have to believe in or do anything anything that makes me
feel bad or I don't like.

Camp 5.: It's all a scheme to get us; microchips in vaccines, more oppression,
broken promises, the rich get richer...

Camp 6.: It's all meaningless. Do what you want. Nothing matters. Make all
the MFers suffer.

Camp 7.: Endure. Keep hope alive. Things will get better.

Camp 8.: I do what I can to be positive and helpful. I believe in truth.

Camp 9.: It's someone else's fault. I don't deserve this.

Camp 10.: God will solve our problems.

So. Where are you and what's with your reasoning?

Aye.

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thataway



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of speculation on this thread. There are no long term studies of the longevity of immunity. The two vaccines in the USA (mRNA vaccines) are focused on the spike protein, and not a common type of vaccination. Corona virus mutates rapidly and we don't know how long the current vaccines will confer immunity, or if it will work well on mutations. How can someone say it is better to get a the second or booster vaccination in 5 to 6 months? No one has studied this, with these vaccines and the corvid 19 virus. It is very possible that a "booster" or even a second type of vaccine may be better in the future.

There are some documented cases of re-infection and some have been more serious (including death) than the fist case. Some have been mutations of the original virus, some appear to be the same virus genetic variant.

The reality is that you will probably not get "herd immunity" within a year in the USA, because of those who will refuse, or cannot take the vaccination. Although the number of persons in the polls who will refuse is in the 15 to 20% (down from earlier this year), a recent Kaiser study suggest that 29% of health care workers may reject taking the vaccine. That is disturbing to me.
We plan to keep masking and social distance for at least the next year.

There are a large number of people who refuse to wear masks. there are even establishments which have signs "No Masks Allowed" and will not allow anyone to enter who is wearing a mask. (I found this out as I talked to cousins in Idaho and Colorado.). Even in cities who have "masks required" there has been little enforcement.

From: FDA Briefing Document Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine:

Quote:
Vaccine efficacy for the primary endpoint against confirmed COVID-19 occurring at least 7 days after the second dose was 95.0% with 8 COVID-19 cases in the vaccine group compared to 162 COVID-19 cases in the placebo group.


Quote:
Only 3% of participants had evidence of prior infection at study enrollment, and additional analyses showed that very few COVID-19 cases occurred in these participants over the course of the entire study (9 in the placebo group and 10 in the BNT162b2 group, only 1 of which occurred 7 days or more after completion of the vaccination regimen – data not shown). ..... While limited, these data do suggest that previously infected individuals can be at risk of COVID-19 (i.e., reinfection) and could benefit from vaccination.


Quote:
Based on the cumulative incidence curve for the all-available efficacy population after Dose 1, COVID-19 disease onset appears to occur similarly for both BNT162b2 and placebo groups until approximately 14 days after Dose 1, at which time point, the curves diverge, with more cases accumulating in the placebo group than in the BNT162b2 group, and there does not appear to be evidence of waning protection during the follow-up time of approximately 2 months following the second dose that is being evaluated at this point in time.


The graph would not transfer, but the incidence of covid 19 infections were the same between the Placebo and the vaccinated group until about 14 days after the first dose. At this point there is 95% protection from the vaccine over the 2 months periods studied. There is absolutely no information at this time, with this vaccine that the second dose would be better given months later.

During and after the SARs Infections in 2009, there were papers written on what type of vaccines could and should have been tried. These included: inactivated vaccines, virally and bacterially vectored vaccines, recombinant protein and DNA vaccines, as well as the use of attenuated virus vaccines.

Here is a link to a CDC article about current types of vaccines which are in the pipeline.

Be safe!

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WeekiTiki



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bartenders don't need the vaccine

They're serving the folks that kill it off day by day

No virus can live in an alcohol saturated environment

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westward



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr Bob's post illustrates the challenges when folks attempt to self-perform immunology based on speculation or internet theories. There's really no quick substitute for the hard work performed by the scientific community over weeks and months of research and testing. Even then, there are no sure answers.

The real challenge comes when people start to buy into and spread these speculative theories because they "seem reasonable to me", often based on one's political or demographic status.

Once you receive your vaccination approval, and assuming you wish to proceed, I urge you to follow the medical protocols re: follow-up vaccinations. Otherwise, you could end up doing unintended damage to your health and the health of others.

Happy New Year!
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dotnmarty



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

westward wrote:
Once you receive your vaccination approval, and assuming you wish to proceed, I urge you to follow the medical protocols re: follow-up vaccinations. Otherwise, you could end up doing unintended damage to your health and the health of others.


So well said! When we get through this, and we will, it will be because you heeded this advice.

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Foggy



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eventually, you have to face up to the consequences of your actions.
("You reap what you sow".)

Nothing too heavy, Holidays and all, but it seems to be true.

Think about it.

Aye.
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Scuppers



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have searched high and low. I find no research or data suggesting that your theory of reinfection is based on facts. There have been 26 documented cases of reinfection out of over 16 million infections (the latest data I could find) There are an additional 1600 cases that are potentially reinfections, but data surrounding the initial infections are questionable. Taken as a whole, the data is strongly in support of the sustained immunity theory, at least for 90 days. Why would you point at this issue, when people are not wearing masks?

This reinfection data is statistically insignificant, and should be ignored. Instead, you insist on creating, out of thin air, the idea that reinfection is entirely possible, and that the issue has not been studied enough to draw any conclusion. You could be right, of course. Statistical theory says you are not. If you use that information to induce reaction, I would call that propaganda.
I try to follow facts, but I am human and make assumptions that do not always hold up to the light of logic and reason.

BTW, there is ample data concerning many vaccine second dose protocalls, going all the way back to the polio vaccine. You quoted the actual data from the FDA Covid report on the Moderna vaccine that clearly indicates that at three weeks, after the first dose, the immune response protection is at over 90 %, and that that is when they recommend the second dose. The data on the increased performance is non existent after the second dose. I do not doubt that it can enhance the performance of the vaccine. I will take the vaccine my physician recommends, so attempting to label me as a would be doctor is absurd. If I am wrong about the facts, please correct me..
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thataway



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I have searched high and low. I find no research or data suggesting that your theory of reinfection is based on facts. There have been 26 documented cases of reinfection out of over 16 million infections (the latest data I could find) There are an additional 1600 cases that are potentially reinfections, but data surrounding the initial infections are questionable. Taken as a whole, the data is strongly in support of the sustained immunity theory, at least for 90 days. Why would you point at this issue, when people are not wearing masks?


First there are over 80 million "reported" infections. We have no idea of how many there are. Same for "re-infections". Those which are "known" are people who have come forward, have been tested and confirmed that they had a second infection of COVID 19. Some seem to be the same or similar RNA sequences. Some have been variants. The unreported cases are unknown. Statistics only are of value if you are doing valid planed scientific studies. In this case, we have no idea of how many real cases (more or less) or of actual re-infections. There could be thousands or even hundreds of thousands. That is the reason that my granddaughter who tested positive, with no symptoms, in August, is re tested for COVID 19 every few weeks. At this point there is a lot of ambiguity in the antibody tests for immunity. Again as more data points are obtained, we will know a lot more. Many virologists are concerned about secondary or re-infection. Although I no longer practice medicine, I advise a number of folks on what I feel are best practices, based on my background as a clinician and academic. That is why I recommend a fitted, N 95 quality mask. Not a bandana or couple pieces of cloth. Fitted means no air leaks around the edge of the mask. Since I am 84 with several co-morbidities, I use an N 95 fitted mask. We are running low on the 3M masks, so I will be experimenting with the "Filti" masks, which are currently on route.

The last sentence makes absolutely no sense. Sorry, perhaps I misunderstand its meaning. I make it very clear: People should mask and maintain social distancing. Ideally all would be wearing fitted N 95 quality or better masks. The reality is that a very small percent of the population is taking these precautions. There are good studies to suggest that the "social distance" should really be closer to 12 feet than 6 feet. There are in-expensive ways to have an N95 quality mask, and I have cited this before in other posts.

Again--Be safe. Mask, socially distance, and get the vaccine when it is available.
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hardee



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

westward wrote:
Dr Bob's post illustrates the challenges when folks attempt to self-perform immunology based on speculation or internet theories. There's really no quick substitute for the hard work performed by the scientific community over weeks and months of research and testing. Even then, there are no sure answers.

The real challenge comes when people start to buy into and spread these speculative theories because they "seem reasonable to me", often based on one's political or demographic status.

Once you receive your vaccination approval, and assuming you wish to proceed, I urge you to follow the medical protocols re: follow-up vaccinations. Otherwise, you could end up doing unintended damage to your health and the health of others.

Happy New Year!


Absolutely. Thumbs Up

Harvey
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westward



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got dose 1 of the Pfizer vaccine last night. No sore arm or other ill effects yet, hopefully not at all. My nurse and the vaccine documents mentioned 5-6 possible/temporary Sx., which are basically transient low-grade flu Sx. Use Tylenol if you have Sx. In rare cases people who are pre-disposed to severe allergic shock (eg those who carry epi-pens) can have a serious vaccine reaction. They hold you in clinic for 15 min. to monitor for this.

They confirm the Pt.'s second vaccination appt. before giving the first. Nurse said the vaccine studies and emergency approval were all based on a 2 dose protocol, and that you cannot mix vaccines: whatever you get for the first needs to be the same for the second, proceed only as directed.

Reminder: even with the vaccine-induced personal immunity, one can still be an asymptomatic virus carrier and vector, so as Dr. Bob stated earlier our masking/distancing protocols do not change until largely everyone has been vaccinated. We will all be (hopefully) masking/distancing well into 2021.
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