California Dive Boat Captain Indicted

Barry Rietz

https://boattest.com/article/captain-conception-dive-boat-indicted-fire-killed-34

hardee · Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:20 am Post subject:

Not surprising result.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon

curioustraveler · Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:05 pm Post subject:

Are any of you licensed captains? I've always wanted to get my 6-pack, and I'm currently acquiring the days at sea in order to obtain it. Right now it's just a personal goal but long term, I'd like to do some deliveries in retirement.

I know there are some liability concerns being a licensed captain though, as evidenced in this story. I race weekly on other people's boats, and also bareboat charter. Although I haven't researched it, and I'm not being paid as a Captain for any of these activities, I imagine there is still some liability there as the highest trained individual aboard.

thataway · Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:19 pm Post subject:

The skipper of the Conception is potentially spending the rest of his life in prison. Obviously the safety and well being of the passengers and crew should have been paramount. I know that the higher licenses have a requirement of going to fire fighting school on a regular basis. I am not sure if this vessel fell under that category, but it probably should have. The increased awareness, could have prevented the tragedy. I have read all of the articles I could find on this incident. Certainly the lack of a watch, lack of alarm thru out the vessel, with multiple detection areas, and the lack of a good second exit from the cabin. Even in my sailing vessels, I always made sure that there was a secondary way of escape from every cabin, in case of either fire or flooding.

I don't know how much liability there is, but it is a reason I have never sat for the exam. I have taken the on line in the in book. There is a bit more involved today. The drug tests, the Transportation Worker Identification Credential (TWIC), physical exam, and current CPR and First Aid cards, increased insurance. If you are currently doing "charters"--then you should have commercial vessel insurance, and liability at a high number...even if you are not paid (or licensed).

I did voluntary work for our the Navy (Blue Angels), county and bumped my liability up to $10 million. As well as had any incidents covered by my primary boat insurer, who knew what I was doing, and had specific coverage for that.

I have several good friends who are full time Delivary skippers. It is a hard life--not much money--and you have to have a lot of experience in many types of boats. Also you have to be able to repair any failing systems aboard. Many do a pre Delivary survey, even before they are hired to see if the boat is adequate for the voyage. There are often logistical problems. One of my friends has a portable "set up" he takes, with a MFD, full charts and a small radar dome, he has a portable fuel filtration system, and extra filters for it. Also you has a high powered LED light bar for "just in case". as well as his ditch bag. Also the Delivary skipper has to be accepted by the owner's insurance--and may require an experience and knowledge survey. Both of these skippers have their 1000 Ton license, with sail and towing endorsements.

Definitely take the classes, and decide if it is worthwhile to go commercial. I had a friend who got a limited CG un-inspected vessel ticket for limited coastal waters. He had minimal experience. He advertisd charters and never had a taker, with a nice 35' trawler.

thataway · Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:20 pm Post subject:

double post.

curioustraveler · Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:30 pm Post subject:

Sorry, by "Charter" I meant bareboat charter with friends. Right now, if something happens, we can simply claim that we're ignorant charter skippers. But I imagine with a Captain's license, I may become a bit more of an attractive target for a civil suit.

And when I race I am currently just a crewmember. I need to determine if I have a captain's license, do I become responsible for the actions of everyone, including the skipper.

I've done one delivery from Bermuda to St. Martin and a couple on the Chesapeake. I have no interest in doing it full time but helping with deliveries may be a nice way to supplement my retirement someday.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread but it brought up some questions I've been thinking about re getting my license when I really don't need it yet.

thataway · Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:49 pm Post subject:

Even without a captain's license a yacht owner has a certain degree of liability. My background is ocean racing; coastal and long distance. There have been some major law suits by crew against their "friend" the owner and skipper of the vessel.

It happened to one of my friends. There as an accidental jibe while racing and the wife of one of his regular crew members was hit by the boom, which caused an intracranial hemorrhage with such residual, that she was no longer employable. The owner of the vessel lost his boat, and his business by the time the suit was over.

I am aware of a 100 million dollar law suit currently being litigated against the owner/skipper of a 40 foot fast power boat. There were two couples who were neighbors and close friends who went for an "evening cruise". The boat ended up crashing on a jetty, one of the friends was ejected from the boat, and had extremely serious injuries. Just don't' assume that your friends will not sue, if things go wrong...it is the world we live in...

RobLL · Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:41 pm Post subject:

If your friend or guest does not sue, and most probably won't, that does not stop any insurance company they have from suing. (medical, life, disability) One of my kids was a guest at at a mountain cabin and another guest fell on the steps. Her insurance company sued the owners.

hardee · Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:53 am Post subject:

I looked into doing the 6-pack, and did the classes, but when it comes down to it just for a personal, recreational boater, to keep the license current it would have cost me more than what I would have saved on my insurance, which was my primary reason for getting the 6-Pack. The classes were fun, challenging and very informative. Fun to be in the live class, and get in on the "banter".

For me, the financial out go was not worth the in come, so, I can take my boat where I want to, when I want to, and the increased knowledge was worth it, the license just added a whole new layer of governmental gobble-de-gook.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon

gstraub · Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:50 am Post subject:

I have had my CG masters license for almost 15 years now. I currently am captain of a 1911 Chesapeake Bay skipjack for a local museum. Before that I was relief captain on another skipjack that took school kids out as part of an educational program. I'm about to retire from my "real" job and thought I would spend more time using my license. However, I am really thinking hard about that. I'm getting tired of hearing (in my real work and with the CG license) about how many ways I can go to prison for a mistake. Now, don't get me wrong, some things are clearly negligence and the person deserves punishment.

Here is a very minor example. On one sail, we had a starter failure and couldn't get the engine started to get back to the dock that was upwind in a very narrow creek. That's a reportable casualty by CG rules, so I dutifully notified the CG because if I didn't, I could get my license revoked or other action taken against me. There was no danger. The passengers loved it because they got an extra hour of sailing while we waited for a tow to the dock. The CG was calling me on the radio and on my cell phone while I was trying to get a tow set up. You would have thought we were sinking. I even got a call at 9 PM that night from the CG investigations division and then had to talk with them again the next day. They eventually decided it did not warrant an investigation since we were primarily sail and not "auxiliary sail".

In the maritime realm, it just seems that these days the captain is automatically guilty until proven innocent. The bottom line is that things occur all the time that "just happen" or require a judgement call and woe is you if you call it wrong. Hit the dock because of a propulsion casualty, well that is lack of maintenance (and did you do your alcohol and drug tests afterwards). A fire, MOB, or whatever, well not enough drills or lack of training. Went out and there was a weather warning...but almost every day in summer has a weather warning so what do you do? Oh, and don't spill a drop of diesel!

Bottom line is having the license does open up some fun opportunities, but it comes with a whole bunch of ways to get in trouble too! I love having and using my license, but not sure what I'm going to do next year when I have to renew. OK, rant over!

thataway · Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:06 pm Post subject:

Gerhard,
Thank you for keeping the history of the Skipjacks alive. When we lived in VA were always went to opening day of the sailing oyster season. Does your skipjack have a yawl boat or push boat in davits, or has it been retrofitted with an engine in the vessel? Many of the sailing charter schooners also have yawl boats, which allow them to be a pure sailing vessel, with different rules for inspection and certification by the CG.

You bring up an excellent point the Admiralty law is far different than the normal civil law in the United States.

JamesTXSD · Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:14 pm Post subject:

I have a Master License and have operated mostly passenger vessels. In case of an accident/incident, the captain will be held liable to some degree. The Coast Guard assigns a % of responsibility. Understand that if you are tied to the dock, waiting to board passengers, and another boat hits your vessel, you will very likely be assigned some percentage of the blame.

I am not a maritime lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but if you are riding on a friend’s boat and are not hired crew/captain, it is my understanding that you have no responsibility. On trips where we had more than one captain, there is the “Master in Charge,” and if that is you, there will be an assignment of blame, even if you weren’t on watch.

We never did charters with any of our own boats - too much liability for my tastes. Indemnification insurance is a good idea when driving other’s boats, but understand that isn’t “cover you no matter what.”

You are responsible for every life on that boat, AND other boats you may be involved with. Don’t take that lightly. People get on a boat thinking it is Disneyland, and nothing bad can happen. It can. It does. If parents don’t keep track of their child, that kid and his parents are still your responsibility.

As far as getting a license is concerned, the water would be a safer place if everyone out there understood the Rules of the Road. They don’t. I saw Stupid Boater Tricks every trip. If they do something stupid, and your boat is involved, you are still held to some percentage of the blame because of the “Catch 22 Rule” of collision avoidance: avoid a collision. If a go-fast boat driver is drunk and hits you from behind, you will still be assigned some percentage of blame.

My wife and I have been boating for decades. Working commercial boat jobs is the reason we sold Wild Blue - boating for recreation loses some of the fun. We have a small boat to use at our home area, and it is only the two of us who go out on it. Local folks know what we did for our “second career” and occasionally ask if we will take their family out dolphin watching... nope.

I also drove a rescue boat at one of my jobs, and I have seen how things can turn bad in a hurry.

I don’t mean to make this all “doom and gloom”... I have had some of the best experiences of my life on the water, and on commercial boats as well as our own. Just understand ALL the liability ahead of loading passengers on a boat (especially your own boat). If you aren’t running fishing charters (and your state may require a Guide License, as well), the odds are you won’t make back the expense of getting the license.

There are head boats in our local area packing people on boats at $10 to $12 per person for a dolphin watch or bay fishing. Starting pay for a captain is $14 to $15 per hour. No shortage of candidates looking to build experience. That’s your competition.

I’ve talked with people who think they can “write off” their boat by doing sightseeing charters... because their friends always enjoy going out with them. You will need BIG $ liability insurance. A business/tax license. You will need to advertise and market. Weather will be crap and people will still want to go out. Weather will be beautiful and people will cancel. People will book your six pack boat and show up with 9 people. They will book for 6 and show up with 2. They will wear inappropriate clothing for the conditions. Some will be drunk.

I have no regrets on getting and using the license, but we were business owners before we retired the first time, and understood what it really means to deal with the public.

gstraub · Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:36 pm Post subject:

Bob,

Thanks. The skipjack (Claud W. Somers) is a museum exhibit and on the National Register of Historic Places, so it is authentic with a yawl boat and no engine on the vessel. The one I previously sailed had been retrofitted with an inboard. Our boat shop just finished building us a new yawl boat this spring, because the old one leaked from the bottom and top! When sailing with passengers, I always keep the yawl boat in the water ready to go, for safety reasons.

colbysmith · Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:42 pm Post subject:

An update on this case:

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/06/1211110705/california-boat-fire-2019-captain-found-guilty

thataway · Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:12 am Post subject:

Thank you for the update. The owners are certainly to share some of the blame of this tragedy, also one has to look at the practical way of escape from the bunk area below decks. The secondary emergency escape was out of a 3rd tier bunk, difficult to find, and to fit through. It also came up into the main deck house where the fire originated. The potential failure of the design should have been at the least questioned by the Coast Guard inspection officers. There needed to be instruction of the passengers about emergency procedures. On our long distance cruising boats I had plans for all types of emergencies posted right by the companionway. All new crew members (Friends visiting) were required to read these plans. Our C Dorys are perhaps too small for the more formal plan, but one does need to plan for any emergency.

My impression was that the cause of the fire was commonly considered to be from the personal battery charging station. There were multiple devices plugged into limited outlets, there was not isolation of this charging area. There were new requirements mandated almost 2 years ago: