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thataway



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The test of an anchor is how well it holds under load--lets say 50 knots of wind. Some will say "I would never anchor where there might be 50 knots of wind". You may roll the dice and win every time....or not. There is a reason I carry at least 2 good anchors.

I had to "cut and run" one night, to save the boat. There are going to be "iffy" holding conditions if you cruise enough. I have anchors hold in over 90 knots of wind--no fun, but doable.

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Thataway
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colbysmith



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Colby, unless I was planing a lot of boating in AK or places with high tides, I would not go with the 100' of chain. If I was doing AK, then I would stick with the 300' 8 plait. Why do you want to decrease the rode?


Hi Bob,
First, the setup I had with Midnight Flyer (same setup I have now, as it's the same rode. I swapped it out...) when I went to Alaska last year was the Delta with 20' chain and the 300' of rode. I had no problems anchoring. Several nights with high tidal currents, and some wind. I have anchored in some high winds around here (35 mph) again with no problems. I'm using a 14 lb Delta. I wouldn't mind going up to a 22 lb if someone has one they'd like to swap for my 22 lb Lewmar Claw. But the 14 lb has worked fine on the new to me 25 this past year. With that....

The only reason I'm really looking at more chain is for more weight on the bow of the boat, and perhaps more robust anchoring? The only thing I don't like about the chain is it is noisy lowering and raising. My 8 plait is several years old now, and showing wear. I did just turn it around, but now a bit nervous about my splice between it and the chain. How do you know if you did it right and it will hold? I did just hook it up between a lightpole and my Kubota tractor and gave some really good tugs on it.
I should probably just keep what I have since it has worked well for me. But in a few more years I suspect it will be time to replace the rode, and not sure what I'll go with. The 1/2" 8 plait seems to do ok thru the Lewmar 700 windlass, other than it was slipping at the chain splice earlier due to the wear. Hopefully with the turning of the rode and new splice, it'll run thru the windlass fine. Colby
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colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The test of an anchor is how well it holds under load--lets say 50 knots of wind. Some will say "I would never anchor where there might be 50 knots of wind". You may roll the dice and win every time....or not.


I'm one of those that say I would never anchor where there might be 50 kts of wind. That's almost 60mph winds. And I can guarantee if the wind is howling that bad I won't be sleeping anyway. Sad But I think it's reasonable to have ground gear that will take a good set and hold in 20-30 kt winds. Colby
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Almas Only



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I boat along the East Coast, from Maine/Canada to Key West and the Dry Torguas, as well as the Chesapeake Bay and it’s tributaries, and typically anchor whenever possible. I don’t ask much of an anchor – just that it set and reset quickly, and hold in stout winds and currents. Which type might be best in a hurricane isn’t a factor, because I don’t anchor anywhere near hurricanes. When they’re coming, I’m thinking trailers and insurance, not anchors. Here are my observations and conclusions, for whatever they might be worth.

Danforth: Worked well on clay, sand, mud, and other generally soft bottoms where the anchor could get a good bite, and evenly load the flukes. However, would not set through deep grasses, such as those encountered in the Key West anchorage, and didn’t survive coral and other hard rocks where the loading on the anchor is at the tip, rather than along the entire fluke. With tip loading, and a good blow, the tip bends back on itself and the anchor is released, and will not reset. I still carry a Danforth, but only use it as a second anchor, generally deployed from the stern to keep the bow pointed into the weather, and moderate the tendency to hunt.

Delta: Went to this after the Danforth, and quickly decided it wasn’t going to work for me. Might have gotten a different result had I added a lot more chain than 20 ft. on ½ line, but don’t really think so. This anchor simply would not set on hard packed bottoms, be they clay or gravel, no matter how much rode was deployed. The reason for this became fairly obvious when I put the anchor down on a flat surface (concrete driveway), spooled out some rode, held it at the height of the roller above the waterline, and gave a little tug. The tip of the anchor is pulled away from the bottom, as the mass of the anchor skips nicely along, without leaving so much as a scratch. The Delta had particular difficulty on hard bottoms in narrow channels where you simply couldn’t let out enough scope to compensate for the fact that the force you’re attempting to apply to get the anchor to set was also lifting the tip off the bottom, and preventing it from digging in. I ended up using it as the proverbial paperweight, and then donated it to the Hontoon auction.

Bruce/Claw: I’ve used the Claw for years, and it sets on all bottoms, first time, every time, and holds and resets after any swinging because of tidal or strong wind shifts. It works well with as little as 20 ft. of chain on ½ in. line, although I’ve now gone to much longer chain to get more weight in the bow and more reliable spooling on and off the gypsy of the Lewmar 700. For me, given the locations and conditions in which I boat, it’s the best choice. It’s also one of the least expensive anchors, and depending on your wallet and disposition, replacement cost can cross your mind when you’re having to put a blade to the line and say “goodby” to hopelessly fouled ground tackle.

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thataway



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I did just turn it around, but now a bit nervous about my splice between it and the chain. How do you know if you did it right and it will hold? I did just hook it up between a lightpole and my Kubota tractor and gave some really good tugs on it.


That is the way to proof any splice. I use the truck and a tree. You put a heck of a load on it.

You say you would never anchor where there might be 50 knots. I have seen 50 knot at Powell, and in SE AK.....you never know when it's going to hit.

I think the 14# delta is light for the C dory 25. Yes, I know that is the "recommended size for 20' to 32' for "normal conditions"--I think for Delta the was up to 30 knots. A prudent cruiser sizes one up for "potential gales"--and 2 sizes up for Hurricane force winds. Problem is I have had to anchor in hurricane force winds in S. Calif. Santa Ana Conditions at Two Harbors. 90 knots --sea planes (Grumman Goose) going back ward once airborne. (Take off speed 65 knots). As soon as off the water the darn planes started to go backward....ref the land). That particular day it was the only way to get to and from Catalina, commercially. I choose to sail my boat home. Once clear of the funnel effect the wind in the Chanel was in the 40 to 50 knots...not a pleasant trip! Fortunately I didn't have do go directly into it.

As for the rode, keep ending for end, and take a few feet off each time. Once you have done the good splice--you are good to go. The next will be easier.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Danforth: Worked well on clay, sand, mud, and other generally soft bottoms where the anchor could get a good bite, and evenly load the flukes. However, would not set through deep grasses, such as those encountered in the Key West anchorage, and didn’t survive coral and other hard rocks where the loading on the anchor is at the tip, rather than along the entire fluke. With tip loading, and a good blow, the tip bends back on itself and the anchor is released, and will not reset.


These are valid observations and the most frequent complaints about the Danforth. The best Danforth--and what the Navy finally ended up using to pull thousands of landing craft off the beaches, is the "High Tensil anchor". I will not carry any other Danforth than the HT. The current HT 12# is rated for up to a 42 foot boat in 20 knots. The flukes inner profile is a forged "T" section--the "Standard" is bent sheet metal--that that is what bends. Also the HT has sharp edges, and will bit in, much better than the more blunt edges of the sheet metal. The HT is made of 4130 Steel, Heat Treated, Hot dipped Galvanized. I got my 12# HT in 1962 and shouldn't have sold it--but it was almost 50 years later--and still was in almost perfect condition, having been used on boats from 18' to 62' in length. A 40# HT held our Cal 46 in 90 knots of wind, and excellent holding conditions. I had to move 3x in 24 hours to keep in a protected lee as the wind shifted. A couple of years ago we were "prop dredging" the entrance to our Bayou. The boat we were using had twin 400 hp diesels. We used my 40#, WWII Danforth HT survivor to hold the boat against some loads which really stretched the 1/2" nylon rode we were using....I would guess in well over 1200# range. A fellow with a 17' whaler was supposed to pick up the anchor and bring it back to my house....He brought back the rode cut off just before the chain! Needless to say, I was a little PO, but kept my cool. We went out and worked the anchor out later in the day and I put a new splice in my 1/2" rode.

I don't think the Delta is all that good an anchor in comparison with some of the generation 3 anchors. It is a little better than the CQR, which I used extensively before the Delta and other new anchors were available. If I was younger and going to do more cruising I would get the Vulcan. or Manson Supreme/ Mantus and donate the Delta to the Hontoon auction. Incidentally the classic photo advertising the CQR in most of the US publications was taken of a boat off Avalon during a Santana wind. The boat was actually riding to a WWII Danforth HT exactly like the one I still have today.

Alma's Only, the Delta, CQR and similar anchors are not made to begin to dig in when sitting upright--you will drag them all over if you try that. They are made to roll on their side so they start to dig in...There are any number of good videos now available where the camera is secured on a floating line and float above the anchor as the boat moves back to set.

With all of these testimonies, maybe I should give the "claw" another try. Sixty Eight dollars plus shipping, at Defender!!!

One of the better tests in cohesive mud/clay was by Fortress. Their FX 37# topped out over 1800# in the 45* position, and over 900# (same as Danforth HT 35#) in the 32* position. The claw CQR and Delta were at the bottom of the test holding at in the mid 400# range. The Ronca was only 350# and the Mantus was 680#--no telling why the difference with similar anchors.

The ABYC Horizontal Working Load (lbs) Table

Wind Mode Boat ...... 20' ..25'.....30'.
speed
..........length
15 Lunch Hook..... .....90 125........175..
30 Working................360 490 ......700.. Working loads
42 Storm....................500 720 .....1400
60 Violent Storm........980 1440....2800.

Practical Sailor small boat anchor test 20 to 25 foot sailboats, about 20# or less anchor.Observations: The downside to the Delta is that it does not dive or bury itself, "We tested two Bruce-type anchors: the Lewmar Claw and the Manson Ray. Both were defeated by the hard surface of the sand/clay seabed, as they simply skated over the surface without engaging." "Testers were surprised by their success in the sand seabed. Both quickly set well and looked as if they would dive deeper. On one pull, the Claw pulled out and would not reset, but otherwise, both completed the 90-degree and 180-degree yaw tests satisfactorily. They tended to pull out and reset at 90 degrees, rather than slide around, but in the 180-degree test, they somersaulted and reset almost immediately.

In the mud seabed, both anchors scooped large amounts of mud, which might interfere with resetting in soft bottoms"

(In 2001 Practical Sailor conclusion was: " the best test group, those that did not break out and moved very little (from not measurable to no more than 6″), were the Bruce, the Fortress FX-16, the Supermax (with the adjustable shank) and the Spade." Danforth and Fortress are both difficult to re-set if suddenly pulled out as in a 180* wind shift. They are also subject to be "fouled" with rocks, clams, etc, that keep the flukes from pivoting the 32* necessary to set in and hold.

. Mostly doing veering and 180 degree tests.

But tests are just that. There have been several dozen done in the last 30. years, and none agree. They do not often reproduce the reality of cruising boats. Somewhere back in the archives, I did tests when I got the Manson Boss (similar to Vulcan)--and for a 10# anchor, in our mud, clay/sand, with shells bottom did very well.
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Nancy and Bud



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beware of free anchors. Very Happy
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colbysmith



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I'll put my Claw back on and try it next season. Sure is ugly though compared to the Delta! Colby
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journey on



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, we've all heard testimonials, war stories and opinions on which anchor to use. Here is a series of videos of anchors being tested for initial setting, resetting and swinging to current : Panope's Anchor Tests. They're all in sand with some seaweed, so draw your own conclusions. All tests were done underwater, with camera attached from a 7 ton sailboat.

Also I've not heard much about anchor design. For instance, Bruce is a blunt claw with the claw facing the stock. I assume this would offer the most resistance setting in soft mud, scooping it up, but has no sharp edges to penetrate grall or rocks. The plow is shaped like two agriculture plows welded together. I assume that it would plow a furrow in sand, etc. The Manson is a sharp blade parallel to the stock. I assume it would penetrate clay and grass well, but pull through mud. Those are thoughts on the actual shape of the anchor and the setting/holding characteristics inherent in each shape. Give your opinions based on the anchor shape.

By the way, I repeat that my experience has started me to think about anchor shapes vs. their performance. For instance, the Bruce held well in the PNW mud, but would not set in the grass in Fry's Harbor, Santa Cruz Island. The Fortress suggested for our boat length was too light to penetrate the grass in the same place. And so on.

Boris
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bridma



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was anchored in a bay where a lot of other boats were anchored. I did not know what the bottom consisted of. When I pulled the anchor up it was covered in mud. Bummed me off a tad as I had no wash down arrangement ready. The anchor is a Manson Supreme. I have been useing them for years. Sets first time,never dragged, never let me down. The only anchor that gives me a good night's sleep.

Martin.
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thataway



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anchor types are well covered in Earl Hinz's book " The complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring." Earl passed on before publishing a 3rd edition which would have included the scoop type of anchor. Chapman's "Piloting and Seaman Ship" has always had a good section on anchoring. Current Chapman's has 34 out of almost 2000 pages on anchoring. Chapmans' is a book which belongs in every boater's library. , The latest US book on anchoring is by Rudy Schultz. "Anchoring: A Ground Tackler's Apprentice - Basics and Beyond." Van Dorn gives a number of interesting formulae and discussion in his "Oceanography and Seamanship".

The 32* angle seems to be a good compromise for sand. Especially for non cohesive mud 45* is the favored angle. Most anchors use this geometry in their setting angle.

For grass or kelp you have to penetrate the surface material. Plus we really should not be tearing up the seabed. The best anchor there is the old fashion "Fisherman". Turkey has many sea beds with very large tuberous grass roots. I was diving with a hatchet or machete and cutting a small holes and then inserting the point of the 70# CQR into that hole. We had a 70# "Turkish Fisherman" hand forged in Bodrum, Turkey while we watched. It was a pattern hundred of years old. The large flukes were sharpened to cut thru the grass.

The pattern one sees in cruising boats is that there is one primary anchor--usually a large scoop such as Ronca, Manson Supreme, or Bruce. (Although there are somewhat different the share certain characteristics.) Then there is a large HT Danforth or more commonly a huge Fortress. Finally something like a fisherman for that grass, if in those areas.

What do folks like Steve and Linda Dashew (still cruising into their 80's!) use? Steve has used both Ronca and Bruces as the mains, with a back up Fortress.
One of the most common threads is that bigger is better. Some of the 50 to 60 footers are now using 120# anchors--30 years ago most were using 60 to 70#.

Pick an anchor appropriate for your area and learn the art and science of anchoring. Know the seabed bottom where you boat. The "down scan" feature of the depth sounder can often help to determine--and especially find "obstructions" such as big rocks, trees, brush or extensive kelp/grass.
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Pacificcoast101



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nancy and Bud wrote:
Beware of free anchors. Very Happy
Being a diver, I've only paid for one anchor in my life. There are a few rocky reefs around here and an artificial reef made up of pilings stacked up that grab anchors and won't let go. I've even found a couple of brand new anchors with shiny chain. Nearly every Danforth anchor I've found has bent flukes.

https://youtu.be/ULMjoPgYCEA

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hardee



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Way back when, My physics teacher told us that there are few laws in this world that are never broken. The laws of physics are those. Anchoring is based on physics and those laws don't break. Apply those laws to your physics of anchoring, and it will help.

My progression Bruce - Fortress - Delta - Rocna. No reason to change from the Rocna. And I use 70 feet of chain. Rarely put rode into the water.

Harvey
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thataway



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Practical Sailor sends out weekly e-mails, trying to get more subscriptions. Today's e-mail linked to the 2013 small boat anchors (20 to 25' boats). I had linked one table and several comments in an above post. There was special emphasis on veering as with wind shifts and tidal current changes.

In re-reading the article, there is a lot of good information on performance of anchors in general, and specifically in anchors that most of us use.. Nothing new, but some good reminders. Worth a re-read. It also links to full articles the P S has done in the past.
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colbysmith



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I get ready to head south for a month of cruising, I've been doing some reading on anchor types. I did put the 22 lb Claw back on, and along with turning the rode around and resplicing it back to the chain, I have to admit I do have a little anxiety about rather my splice will hold up and how the Claw will do in anchoring. Seems like every report I read, gave different results for the Claw, along with other anchor comparisons. But the one thing that seemed rather prominent was all the reports showed the holding power of the Claw, inferior to that of the Delta. It'll be interesting to see what my own results will be using the Claw, after my past experience with the 14 lb Delta. I'll still have my Danforth or Fortress? stern anchor if all else fails... Colby
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