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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20803
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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 Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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Jody, Sounds like a well designed and valid experiment. You mentioned you were going to monitor the heat of the "charging coils". Hopefully this will be easy to do. I believe it is essential in the experiment.
The start requirement for the Suzuki 115 is 512 amps CCA. The usual start current draw for this engine max Is in the 150 amp range. I believe the shunt should handle this easily. You could put the clamp on meter over the start cable and see what it draws.
Another depth to the experiment--and it may put more load on the outboard charging circuit, is to draw down the starting battery to 50% (resting voltage of 12.2) and then measure current from outboard charger circuit with and without the DC to DC charger.
I suspect that the start battery acts as sort of a "buffer" for the outboard charging circuit, if the Victorn acts like the Sterling which I have.
.
_________________
Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL |
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robhwa
Joined: 04 Dec 2013
Posts: 272
City/Region: Anderson Island
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Marcia C
Photos: Problemadela
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| pcg wrote: | ...
I want to be able to use four charging sources (outboard alternator, generator, shore power, and solar) to charge both start and house batteries. I'd like to utilize some of them simultaneously. For example, both the outboard alternator and solar panels while underway....
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That is what I do...this unit
https://www.renogy.com/dcc50s-12v-50a-dc-dc-on-board-battery-charger-with-mppt/
is the heart of my 12 volt system. It will charge at up to 50 amps total, balancing either from the main motor (Honda 90) alternator, my 525 watt panels, or both at the same time.
You hook the system to cables coming from the starting battery, to solar, and then out to the house batteries.
One other advantage of this combined system is that it priority charges the starting battery from the solar panels if the motor is off. Normal solar chargers don't do this.
One down side is that it is 12 volts only. I bought Renogy batteries initially (a lot cheaper then Battle Born), but it says hooking in series will damage them and the BMS won't allow it, so I moved the Renogys to my camper and put BattleBorn in the C-Dory. BattleBorn claims wiring in series up to 48 volts is no problem, and "so far, so good".
You could also use a 12 to 24 volt converter.
With the LiFePO4's BMS, in theory, I don't need to worry about discharging. I "stressed" the system during the time when I could still return the batteries, and so far I can't overdischarge the batteries unless I specifically program it.
You get so much more from LiFePO4 anyway, I always worried about overdischarging the AGMs when using the trolling motor. It was a definite problem, and I've fished with people on their bass boats that regularly overdischarged their batteries. Then they complained about having to change house batteries every year.
One of the really neat things is when the sun is shining bright to be able to troll simply from the solar panels. Solar-cooled beer also seems to taste better.
For the generator or shore power, I hooked my Cabelas chargers to the batteries, and then the 120VAC into the generator or shore power, but really haven't done that much. One advantage of carrying the generator is that the trolling motors can act as a backup to take me home if the main doesn't work.
Well, that pretty much sums up how I can charge house batteries from 4 sources.
_________________
Rob Harrison & Marcia Ciol
Anderson Island, WA
2003 22 Cruiser "Mar-C" |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20803
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| pcg wrote: | Great discussion. I'm considering using the Victron charger in a more complex system. Is this diagram conceptually correct?
I want to be able to use four charging sources (outboard alternator, generator, shore power, and solar) to charge both start and house batteries. I'd like to utilize some of them simultaneously. For example, both the outboard alternator and solar panels while underway, or solar panels and generator while anchored on a cloudy day, etc. I know I would need to make provisions for not exceeding current levels at particular points, but I'm just considering the concept at this time and wondering if this will work. Thank you.
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Rob has answered part of the question, and I am not that familiar with the Renology DC DC charger MPPT controller. Thus I only comment on what I am familiar with.
In your diagram, you have basically all of the positive wires (which is only what you show) to the start battery or a bus going to the start battery. I would have my MPPT solar charger going directly to the LI battery. I would have a dedicated LI battery charger for mains and generator charging going directly to the Li battery.
then also the DC to DC battery charger from start battery to Li bank.
If you felt that you needed a charger hooked up to the start battery, I would use an echo charger.
The way you have it has the battery charger going to the start battery and then thru the DC to DC charger. I feel in that way you have significant chance of over charging the house battery. You will not get the best performance out of your Li batteries.
What size solar panel are you going to use?
Rob,
I believe if you have a 2003 Honda 90 only has a 17 amp battery charging output. That is true for the carburetor engines, In 2007 the 90 is fuel injected and has 44 amps, 35 usable for battery charging |
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robhwa
Joined: 04 Dec 2013
Posts: 272
City/Region: Anderson Island
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Marcia C
Photos: Problemadela
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| thataway wrote: |
Rob,
I believe if you have a 2003 Honda 90 only has a 17 amp battery charging output. That is true for the carburetor engines, In 2007 the 90 is fuel injected and has 44 amps, 35 usable for battery charging |
Yes, and this low charging from the alternator is borne out by my meters. It is a little better than 17 amps @ 12 volts, which would be 200 watts. It shows more like 230 watts. I guess converting 17 amps @ 14.4 volts to amps @ 12 volts.
The LiFePO4 batteries are amazing. When partially discharged only a bit, they seem to take charge very easily with little internal resistance that you see in AGMs. They don't get as hot either. I hooked them up directly to my truck alternator, which is what I initially intended, and it was scary how fast they charged. However, I'd need some pretty large cables to get back into the camper with that high a current. 50 amps is fine.
The Honda 17 amps current does add up over time, but I'd love to get closer to that 50 amps I can use with the system I have.
This Renogy system seems unique to me. I don't know of any other device that offers so much, combining alternator and solar, and charging the starter as well as the house from solar. However, if it fails, several things fail at once.
The nearly 20-y-old carburated Honda 90 offers little justification for replacement other than it is old and I worry about it. If I don't replace it, it may outlast me. Same with my 23-y-old Honda generator, the one that was too heavy to steal (my only complaint about Honda generators). |
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pcg
Joined: 31 Aug 2018
Posts: 405
City/Region: Sherwood
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Quest
Photos: pcg
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| thataway wrote: |
The way you have it has the battery charger going to the start battery and then thru the DC to DC charger. I feel in that way you have significant chance of over charging the house battery. |
My goal is to keep all batteries charged, using any or a combinations of the four charging sources. I thought the whole point of using an appropriate DC to DC charger was to ensure that the LiFePO4 battery bank was charged properly (i.e. no overcharging, proper algorithm, etc.)
_________________
Paul |
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pcg
Joined: 31 Aug 2018
Posts: 405
City/Region: Sherwood
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Quest
Photos: pcg
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| robhwa wrote: |
One down side is that it is 12 volts only. I bought Renogy batteries initially (a lot cheaper then Battle Born), but it says hooking in series will damage them and the BMS won't allow it, so I moved the Renogys to my camper and put BattleBorn in the C-Dory. BattleBorn claims wiring in series up to 48 volts is no problem, and "so far, so good".
You could also use a 12 to 24 volt converter. |
It sounds like you have 24V loads in your C-Dory??? |
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Knipet
Joined: 11 Nov 2018
Posts: 262
City/Region: Orcas Island
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Pan-A-C'ya
Photos: Pan-A-C'ya
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Rob,
I'd really like to see photos of your 525watt solar array, I imagine on a summer sunny day it does a good job of charging your batteries. If no photos, where do you have them mounted? How many LiFeP04 batteries do you have and how many Ah? I assume you need the 24v system for your trolling motors?
Question for the group:
I'm confused about the Outboard's alternator to DC to DC charger relationship concerning a LifeP04 battery. Do you need to sized the DC to DC charger large enough to accept what the alternator can give it? Or get one that limits the amperage to the LiFeP04 battery to not overheat the alternator since LiFeP04 batteries can mostly absorb as many watts as given to them?
_________________
Steve & Joanie
2021 Venture 23 "Pan-A-C'ya
Formerly C-Sharp - 2006 22 Cruiser |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20803
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The nearly 20-y-old carburated Honda 90 offers little justification for replacement other than it is old and I worry about it. If I don't replace it, it may outlast me. Same with my 23-y-old Honda generator, the one that was too heavy to steal (my only complaint about Honda generators). |
I think this is a "problem" that many of us have. I felt that way when I had the 90 hp with carbs, for more charging and without the problem of having the drain the carbs each time I was not using the engine in a few weeks.
Now with the 13 year old 150, I would love to have 200 hp on the 25...but no way. Fortunately the 150 puts out in the 44 amp range, so 30 amps to the batteries is fine. The 17 amps "available" may be taken by electronics or bait tanks etc. We find that an average days run restores the LiFePO4 batteries to close to full charge (Victron. meter) We run the freezer and refrigerator, plus induction burner off the Li bank, There remains a lead acid group 27 house battery, which runs the electronic, lights, fans etc. This is charged via a conventional VSR.
| Quote: | My goal is to keep all batteries charged, using any or a combinations of the four charging sources. I thought the whole point of using an appropriate DC to DC charger was to ensure that the LiFePO4 battery bank was charged properly (i.e. no overcharging, proper algorithm, etc.)
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Yes, you are correct. However, from mains power, I used a battery charger profiled for lead acid batteries, and turn off the DC to DC charger. I use a second battery charger which is profiled for the Li battery bank. In my case that is an 80 amp charger off the Victron Multiplus inverter charger.
What you are doing is putting all charging thru the battery, which will be limited in output by the DC to DC charger (if you have a 90 hp Honda, this is 18 amps) and runs some risk of over charging and the shortening the life of the start battery. One of the major advantages of the LI battery is quick charge, as Rob pointed out.
When you are cruising, the start battery should be kept pretty well up to full charge state by the outboard charger. When not in use, it should have minimal self discharge, being an AGM battery.
Depending on how big the solar panels are, the MPPT controller will give much more charge than the DC to DC charger can handle.
I may ask why are you considering LiFePO4 batteries? I have gone back thru your photos and some of your threads. Nothing left me convinced that your boat was a good candidate for Li battery. Also what amount of solar power, and why? If most of your boating is in the PNW, solar power is not as good as lets say, Lake Powell. What are the big draws of power going to be?
I am using the Li for several reasons--first I want a light weight high capacity bank for an all electric galley (Microwave and induction cooking), second I have the fairly high draw of a freezer and refrigerator (chest types). This bank is separate from the flooded lead acid which were adequate for prior owners, who used propane cooking. Also, I had been following Li technology for over 15 years in RV and more recently in boats, so I wanted to experiment with it, and see if it is worth while recommending. (Both boats and RV's). I did not put Li in my RV. We rarely doonbock, and we have a 200 amp alternator and diesel generator, with propane refrigerator and cooking. (does have a microwave and air conditioning, which we run the generator for.) |
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pcg
Joined: 31 Aug 2018
Posts: 405
City/Region: Sherwood
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Quest
Photos: pcg
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| thataway wrote: | | ... What you are doing is putting all charging thru the battery, which will be limited in output by the DC to DC charger (if you have a 90 hp Honda, this is 18 amps) and runs some risk of over charging and the shortening the life of the start battery... |
Yes, that makes sense and was a concern I had.
| thataway wrote: | | I may ask why are you considering LiFePO4 batteries? |
We are planning to use this boat primarily for boondocking in the PNW. We may go days without starting the outboard and will have refrigerator, freezer, lighting, computers, etc. to power. We have spent many years boondocking in an RV, but we relied upon propane for refrigeration and won't be doing that with the boat. We'll have solar, but may have days of rain to contend with. I want the increased energy storage capacity and light weight of LiFePO4. |
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pcg
Joined: 31 Aug 2018
Posts: 405
City/Region: Sherwood
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Quest
Photos: pcg
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| thataway wrote: |
When you are cruising, the start battery should be kept pretty well up to full charge state by the outboard charger. When not in use, it should have minimal self discharge, being an AGM battery. |
Good point. |
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jkidd
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 1615
City/Region: Northern, Utah
State or Province: UT
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Voyager
Photos: Voyager (JK)
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| thataway wrote: | Jody, Sounds like a well designed and valid experiment. You mentioned you were going to monitor the heat of the "charging coils". Hopefully this will be easy to do. I believe it is essential in the experiment.
The start requirement for the Suzuki 115 is 512 amps CCA. The usual start current draw for this engine max Is in the 150 amp range. I believe the shunt should handle this easily. You could put the clamp on meter over the start cable and see what it draws.
Another depth to the experiment--and it may put more load on the outboard charging circuit, is to draw down the starting battery to 50% (resting voltage of 12.2) and then measure current from outboard charger circuit with and without the DC to DC charger.
I suspect that the start battery acts as sort of a "buffer" for the outboard charging circuit, if the Victorn acts like the Sterling which I have.
. |
Well the charge coil is under a cast iron fly wheel, but if I stop the motor I should be able to get a temperature from the bottom. I went hunting for all my clamp on meters and there all AC. I do have a couple of shunts laying around and with the blue tooth dongle will give me more info faster by just being able to do a screen shot.
Normally my start battery wouldn't be discharged as it only starts the motor and is used for the bilge pump. I could see that it might be good information to know how things might react under those conditions so I think I'll give it a try.
I think your right about the battery buffering what is going on, the test should prove that or I'll have to switch to the 18 amp DC to DC charger.
_________________
Jody Kidd
KE7WNG
Northern, Utah
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20803
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | We are planning to use this boat primarily for boondocking in the PNW. We may go days without starting the outboard and will have refrigerator, freezer, lighting, computers, etc. to power. We have spent many years boondocking in an RV, but we relied upon propane for refrigeration and won't be doing that with the boat. We'll have solar, but may have days of rain to contend with. I want the increased energy storage capacity and light weight of LiFePO4. |
That certainly qualifies for the li batteries. But of course the solar is a problem from several issues in the PNW--not only over cast, but sun angle. offset somewhat by longer light days. Chech out the various types of solar panels, and series vs parallel. I suspect you may need in the 400 watt area to keep up with refrigerator freezer chest times in the PNW... It may be do-able, but you can buy a lot of gasoline for the $5,000+ the Li battery, solar, special chargers are going to cost.
Keep us in the loop, it will be an interesting project!
We rarely stayed more than one day at any one place, with the exception of a few Marinas in the PNW--during the 4 years we were cruising there from April thru Oct, Of course back then we only had FLA batteries. (I had put a true gel cell in my RV--and it was fine as long as I owned the RV, and only charged it thru the specific charger profiled for gel batteries. The fellow I sold the RV two fired the gel cell the first time he used it--turned the switch which combined with state batteries, despite my warning and a table on the switch. The higher voltage from his alternator killed in it about 4 hours... |
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pcg
Joined: 31 Aug 2018
Posts: 405
City/Region: Sherwood
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Quest
Photos: pcg
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| thataway wrote: | | I suspect you may need in the 400 watt area to keep up with refrigerator freezer chest times in the PNW... |
Yes, that's pretty much the ball park number I'm thinking as well.
| thataway wrote: | | ...you can buy a lot of gasoline for the $5,000+ the Li battery, solar, special chargers are going to cost. |
True, but we can only carry about $150 worth at a time and we don't want to have to make a long trip back down an inlet to find a marina and then have to travel all the way back again, plus we like quiet, and detest the sound gasoline makes when we convert it to electricity. 
| thataway wrote: | | Keep us in the loop, it will be an interesting project! |
I will. I value the expertise of folks here, yours especially. It will be a long loop. I am just now starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel filled with other projects I have to finish first. I have to finish those so I can make room for the boat in my shop. Hopefully I can start doing fiberglass work next fall. |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20803
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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With a high output battery charger there is very little run time to charge Li batteries. Charging at 100 amps for example.
Thanks for the thoughts. |
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robhwa
Joined: 04 Dec 2013
Posts: 272
City/Region: Anderson Island
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Marcia C
Photos: Problemadela
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| Knipet wrote: | Rob,
I'd really like to see photos of your 525watt solar array, I imagine on a summer sunny day it does a good job of charging your batteries. If no photos, where do you have them mounted? How many LiFeP04 batteries do you have and how many Ah? I assume you need the 24v system for your trolling motors? |
Problemadela (my CD22) is inside now, and panels, batteries, and a few electronics moved to my camper for a winter trip to SW. Here is what I plan for when I return.
I have three 175 watt flexible panels that I bungee to the rooftop handles (easy on, easy off, just a few pounds each), put into cable combiners (3 into 1) and then run a single + and - 8 gauge cable through the roof into the cabin and into the charge controller. I don't drive with the boat on the trailer with the panels on. I use these same panels on my camper, held on by bolts glued to wingnut them to. Same entrance with the 3 combiners. Often, I remove the panels and hide under the overcab bed, and usually take them off when I drive really fast since the truck alternator charges things quickly.
The main addition I haven't tried is the 12 to 24 volt converter to power my trolling motors. I just ordered it. With 50 amps, 24 volts (1200 watts nominal) I won't be able to run both 80 lb motors at full throttle at the same time, but I never do anyway.
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