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journey on
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 Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for voting. Any way you voted is great. Thank you.
Boris |
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smckean (Tosca)
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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NORO LIM,
Although I agree with your general thesis, I don't think the major objective of gerrymandering is to create very safe districts, rather the objective is to create districts that are "just safe enough".
Perhaps an example will best illuminate what I mean. For discussion sake, let's say we have 4 districts each with a 50-50 R vs D voter population split. Let's assume for sake of discussion that the Rs are in control of the state legislature. In this example the goal of the R legislature would be to re-draw the 4 districts, to the extent they can, in order to rearrange the existing 50-50 vote such that the votes will fall 60-40 R in 3 of the 4 districts (making them "just safe enough" for the Rs) moving the resulting 30% (3x10%) of the vote from those 3 districts into the fourth district that will then vote 80-20 D.
So ironically the real goal of gerrymandering is to create one very safe district for the other party so that you can create several "just safe enough" districts for your party.
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dotnmarty
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Gotta get rid of the electoral college.
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MartyP
"...we're all in the same boat..." |
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Nancy and Bud
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| dotnmarty wrote: | | Gotta get rid of the electoral college. |
One outcome of eliminating the electoral college would be that the minority would no longer be able to govern the majority.
There are other issues involved and some would argue that the change would be worse than the current scheme.
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NORO LIM
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| smckean (Tosca) wrote: | NORO LIM,
. . . the objective is to create districts that are "just safe enough".
. . .
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No argument here. As I said "When in power, each side seeks to create as MANY "safe" districts for their candidates as they can." Getting as many safe districts as you can necessitates cutting the margin as close as you safely can in each district. As you noted, part of the game is handing the other party as FEW as possible super-safe districts. The goal here is to maximize the wasting of your opponent's voters on overkill wins while minimizing the wasting of your own voters on lost causes. These gifts to the other side just increase the polarizing influence of gerrymandering on primary elections.
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Bill, Formerly on NORO LIM
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NORO LIM
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| dotnmarty wrote: | | Gotta get rid of the electoral college. |
Absolutely! But an extremely hard row to hoe.
Both the U.S. Senate and the electoral college are anti-majoritarian institutions that were probably necessary for the unification of slave states, non-slave states, large states, small states, industrial states and agrarian states into one country. Both institutions also have arguably sound political and philosophical underpinnings. You don't have to be a complete elitist to see the wisdom in some blunting of the popular will. However, the simple math of population distribution and state size disparity today makes these institutions many times more undemocratic than they were originally designed to be. The ideal of "one person, one vote" has become simply laughable. One Wyoming voter has roughly 50 times the clout of one California voter in the US Senate, and roughly 3 times the clout in the electoral college. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population
I hope some reasonable compromise can be reached to ameliorate this untenable situation. I say untenable, because people will eventually rebel against minority rule.
Vote, and do what you can to influence the system to have votes counted more fairly. You know - tweet somebody. That'll gitter dun. Seriously, if you think the electoral college is unfair, let your elected officials know. |
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dotnmarty
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| NORO LIM wrote: | | dotnmarty wrote: | | Gotta get rid of the electoral college. |
Absolutely! But an extremely hard row to hoe.
Both the U.S. Senate and the electoral college are anti-majoritarian institutions that were probably necessary for the unification of slave states, non-slave states, large states, small states, industrial states and agrarian states into one country. Both institutions also have arguably sound political and philosophical underpinnings. You don't have to be a complete elitist to see the wisdom in some blunting of the popular will. However, the simple math of population distribution and state size disparity today makes these institutions many times more undemocratic than they were originally designed to be. The ideal of "one person, one vote" has become simply laughable. One Wyoming voter has roughly 50 times the clout of one California voter in the US Senate, and roughly 3 times the clout in the electoral college. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population
I hope some reasonable compromise can be reached to ameliorate this untenable situation. I say untenable, because people will eventually rebel against minority rule.
Vote, and do what you can to influence the system to have votes counted more fairly. You know - tweet somebody. That'll gitter dun. Seriously, if you think the electoral college is unfair, let your elected officials know. |
Well, until there is a concerted effort to giterdun our Union will be far from perfect, albeit exceptional. What is this thing "tweet". |
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NORO LIM
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="dotnmarty"] | NORO LIM wrote: | | dotnmarty wrote: | | Gotta get rid of the electoral college. |
. . .
What is this thing "tweet". |
Marty, you're asking a guy with more solar lentigines than hair follicles. To be honest, I don't have a clue. I just thought it sounded kinda hip, or something. I'm just guessing, but I think it might be an acronym: Trifling Witless Erratic Electronic Transmissions. |
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hardee
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="NORO LIM"] | dotnmarty wrote: | | NORO LIM wrote: | | dotnmarty wrote: | | Gotta get rid of the electoral college. |
. . .
What is this thing "tweet". |
Marty, you're asking a guy with more solar lentigines than hair follicles. To be honest, I don't have a clue. I just thought it sounded kinda hip, or something. I'm just guessing, but I think it might be an acronym: Trifling Witless Erratic Electronic Transmissions. |
   
Sure glad you all have it figured.
Harvey
SleepyC 
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dotnmarty
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| _Yes Harvey, "we grow too soon old and too late smart". |
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Peter & Judy
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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God Save the Queen
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Peter & Judy Haase
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cmetzenberg
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Bob Austin 2024
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garyf
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| KevinDU wrote: | | Vote for a gentleman or a maniac. The choice is yours. |
Not even in the US? Nice.
The choice goes far beyond the simple binary one you propose, EVEN if what you say is accurate and unbiased... which it's not.
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Marco Flamingo
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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One of my big gripes, and there was even more of it during election season, is what I consider the gratuitous use of the labels Democrat and Republican. Before any idea or proposed legislation is reported on the evening news, it is proceeded with "Senator XXX, a Republican," or "Govenor XXX, a Democrat." Why is party affiliation required in every news report?
If the talking head says "Republican Congressman XXX is sponsoring a bill to cut taxes," at least 90% of listeners will immediately have made up their minds as to whether it will be good or bad and will choose to ignore the rest of the report (which may or may not be just political spin). If the news report was "Congress is looking at a bill to revise the tax code," people would be required to listen and (hopefully) comprehend. Probably wishful thinking, but it would reduce the "shorthand" party labels that makes snap judgement political divisions so easy.
It would be different to listen to a news program's guest with just the label "Representative XXX" with no reference to the state or political party. Dang, without the shorthand I'd have to listen to whether her ideas further the health, safety, and welfare of the people. |
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dotnmarty
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Marco, shorthand is just that. By just hearing the label you know whether or not "her ideas further the health, safety, and welfare of the people." NOW back to boating  |
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