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starcrafttom



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob the problem you are not seeing is that in a lot of places doing any clearing of brush and removal of trees on your own land could end up with you in jail, paying big fines or getting sued by your own government. There are so many crazy laws on the books that do not allow you to manage your own land or make it financially un feasible. One example. California passed a law that requires you to pay a tax of the timber you sell based on their "price" not the price you got at the mill. So you cut some trees and sell them at the mill for 100k. State comes along and says "hold on that is 500K worth of timber" so you end up paying almost if not more in tax then you got at the mill. They did this in the 90s once they cut harvest on forest land and the cutters and mills started looking for more sellers. All those 5 to 50 acres lots in the hills. cost more to cut small patches then big ones so they can not pay as much for the wood. state wanted to stop this so new law. Just one of the thousands of bs rules and regulations that have lead to a mismanaged forest over the last 30 plus years.

but all of this is a slide of hand if you are worried about the planet. Instead of passing laws and regulation that got rid of some of the bad forest practices of the early 1900s western states passed laws that destroyed the timber industry and the families that depended on it, which is a lot of people and towns throughout the west. But today american consumes more wood then every before and most if not all of it comes from Canada. out of site out of mine. But instead of transporting wood locally we are burning untold amount of diesel transporting the wood from out of country and at a huge job lost. On top of that all the C2o that is going into the atmosphere from these big unnatural avoidable fires. We as a country and the planet as a whole would be far better off if we used new methods from the timber industry and real science to bring back our timber industry right here in the USA. but what do I know I only predicted these fires 30 years ago.. , as did every one that has lived in timber country.

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smckean (Tosca)



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssobol wrote:
In other words, stupid people are to stupid to know that they are stupid.

No, that's not what Foggy's statement says. His statement uses the word "ignorance", not the word "stupid". These two words do not mean the same thing. For example, the statement with the word "ignorance" is something I agree with; the statement using the word "stupid" is something I do not agree with.

According to the Webster dictionary:
    ignorance = "the state or fact of being ignorant: lack of knowledge, education, or awareness"
    stupid = "slow of mind"
Education and curiosity can solve the one, but not the other.

Those are night and day 2 different things. What makes me sad is how this country in recent years has divided itself such that each side rallies around its own set of "facts".....alternative facts, if you will. The future looks dim if we all don't start looking at true facts first, and then forming our opinion; rather than the far too prevalent practice these days of having our opinion first, and then defining the facts in a way that supports that opinion.

P.S. Frankly, this thread is full of what I'm talking about.

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flagold



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

starcrafttom wrote:
Bob the problem you are not seeing is that in a lot of places doing any clearing of brush and removal of trees on your own land could end up with you in jail, paying big fines or getting sued by your own government. There are so many crazy laws on the books that do not allow you to manage your own land or make it financially un feasible. One example. California passed a law that requires you to pay a tax of the timber you sell based on their "price" not the price you got at the mill. So you cut some trees and sell them at the mill for 100k. State comes along and says "hold on that is 500K worth of timber" so you end up paying almost if not more in tax then you got at the mill. They did this in the 90s once they cut harvest on forest land and the cutters and mills started looking for more sellers. All those 5 to 50 acres lots in the hills. cost more to cut small patches then big ones so they can not pay as much for the wood. state wanted to stop this so new law. Just one of the thousands of bs rules and regulations that have lead to a mismanaged forest over the last 30 plus years.

but all of this is a slide of hand if you are worried about the planet. Instead of passing laws and regulation that got rid of some of the bad forest practices of the early 1900s western states passed laws that destroyed the timber industry and the families that depended on it, which is a lot of people and towns throughout the west. But today american consumes more wood then every before and most if not all of it comes from Canada. out of site out of mine. But instead of transporting wood locally we are burning untold amount of diesel transporting the wood from out of country and at a huge job lost. On top of that all the C2o that is going into the atmosphere from these big unnatural avoidable fires. We as a country and the planet as a whole would be far better off if we used new methods from the timber industry and real science to bring back our timber industry right here in the USA. but what do I know I only predicted these fires 30 years ago.. , as did every one that has lived in timber country.


What you're saying is correct and heartbreaking to those of us that lived it. I had my mining claims smack in the middle of all this. 30 years ago we got the first inkling of "roadless" initiatives in the forest - then entire swaths were closed off - so fuel was building for years - then we get massive fires and what's to blame: the weather has changed . . . OK so the weather changed (I'll bite). Even if the weather changed, not thinning the forest (logging) or cutting roads (fire breaks) will still result in massive fires that cannot be contained. Now you have pollution, and complete waste of a resource. How was that smart?

Edited to say: this isn't directed at anyone personally. Just needed to vent after reading Tom's post and having lived it. Such utter foolishness just cannot be ignored when so many are now dead and destroyed.

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Hunkydory



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As another one who has lived & worked through this, Tom you are right on. Where the largest fire in present California history is now raging, as a 18 years old, 54 years ago, I worked as a choker setter & on log landings. Three years later after service in the Army, I drove a logging truck in this area followed by working from laborer to foreman in a forest products particleboard plant, then in Colorado to Plant Manager in timber industry related waferwood plants. Logging for the most part was stopped roughly 30 years ago with plenty of timber still available to be logged on a stable basis, meaning no more timber logged then grown back to replace yearly. Now all that resource is going up in flames & I think, the still logging Canadians are smiling at their good fortune & lack of competition along with the large US forest products companies like Georgia Pacific & Weyerhäuser, who grow their own trees & now don’t have to compete with the timber sales from the US National Forest lands. And the Waferboard plants where I worked in Colorado were also shut down by the radical environmentalists continued appeal of forest service sales until no resource was left. Prior to the waferwood plants, the aspen trees had been managed by the forest service in a slash & burn policy to sustain their re growth in competing with conifer trees. Without fire or logging the aspen tree is slowly pushed back by the conifer tree types. Now it’s again pay for the slash & burn or suffer uncontrolled wildfires. The tourists & residents like the beautiful aspen fall color displays, but not so much the blackened forest from the wildfires.
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SnowTexan



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: Lot of great though here - thanks and............ Reply with quote

bobjarrard wrote:
Thanks all of you for your taking time to give some thought and input. I lived in Bradenton, Florida and my girlfriend's parents had a jon boat tied to the back porch (sitting on the grass). You guessed it, they had several times used the boat to get from the elevated house to the nearest dry land.
So I am going to up the ante on helping. If you live in a fire zone, I will bring you a shuffle hoe (HulaHoe - the best!), a round nose shovel, a grubbing adze, and a pitch fork - to keep. Now here is the hard part. You buy the gloves and agree to work 8 hours a day or more clearing with me. Though I am 73 that you will quit before I do and I would rather work dawn to dusk to get the job done. If we cannot get a burn permit, we have to haul to the dump or bury the debris. All the junk goes to the trash, the propane and gas cans to a dry stacked cinder block enclosure, and a 275 gallon IBC tote for fire water is less than $80. If you don't have a bucket or two, I will bring you some. No better bilge pump/fire fighting device than a scared man with a bucket. Need some $$$$?? Cancel the Sat/cable TV, the expensive phone/data plans, no eating out, and find out who your friends really are, if they will not run a shovel for a day or two, they are not your friends or mine.
Same Old Bob at bobjarrard@gmail.com
PS: My dad used to say "Even us poor folk can afford to have good manners." which I have changed to "Do what you can with what you have to help others and yourself."!!!


A shovel for a day or two and a bucket? We have thousands of gallons of water above ground. Neighbors have handlines with pumps that could blow a hole through a c dory and shoot water into the next county. These are not campfires creeping through the damp Florida undergrowth, they are raging infernos that consume entire Mountainsides in minutes. The Omak fires last week were consuming land at 60mph. You cant fight that with a bucket, you’ll die of carbon monoxide and other chemical asphyxiation before you even see a flame. Sometimes there are no boot straps, just the natural world coming to overpower you. Best get out of its way.
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starcrafttom



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think its hard for someone that has not seen a wind driven fire storm to comprehend it. Its hard for me to believe it and I have seen it. The first time I was on a ridge several miles away looking at a fire run up the side of a steep canyon . Not only was it moving at 40 mph but the heat is so great that the trees several hundred yards ahead of the fire are exploding from the sap boiling inside. Its scary to watch and know that if the wind switches you are only 2 mike or 40 second from being next. In some of these fires you can see that the surrounding trees are not destroyed but the homes are all gone. The fire does not have to get to your home just the embers in the wind. And I believe that many homes could be saved if owners were not forced to evacuate against their will.

As friends son, hes about 30 now, Lives in Oregon and was evacuated from his new home. From the video he shot from several miles away he thought his home was gone. The whole neighborhood was on fire. Again not in the woods really just on the edge of town if not in the city limits. They were allowed to go back in the next day. His house is the only one not burned in the area. everything else for a mile is a complete loss but not his. Fire is weird.
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dotnmarty



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I confess I'm no expert in forest management or probably anything else. Still, in my 85th year, I am saddened by the length some will go to to deny global warming. Good luck, I fear you're gonna need it.
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Hunkydory



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fires can move extremely fast with some weather conditions combined with ground topography, but all fires must have fuel to continue burning & that’s where good forest management or the types of things Bob is suggesting to provide others help can make a difference on whether ones home burns or not. There have now been many years of restrictions on reducing the fuel load & a huge increase in the population with people living in areas where the fires are burning homes not just brush & trees. I remember vividly my old Uncle telling me that people were building homes in areas where fires would not be stoppable & it sure has come to pass.

Marty, where I grew up in Mendocino County, California the summers were just as hot & dry as they are now. Timber harvesting was the leading industry with farming & ranching not far behind. Very few homes were located in the mountain areas. The logging was stopped & nothing else done to prevent fuel build up for future fires with houses springing up even in the most remote areas. This wasn’t happening just In Mendocino County as the same was occurring through out the US. I’m drawing retirement pay from fire fighting with schooling & practical experience on this subject. The climate is forever changing & with that we must adapt or go the way of the Anasazi. These fires have much to do with human malfeasance, but very little to actual present day climate change. Climate change ranks very low on my concern list especially in comparison to new more deadly diseases & world war or just the present social upheaval.
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oldguy83



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1930 year I was born total population of USA 120 million, Calif. 5.71 million. Calif. today 40million that we know of.
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robhwa



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dotnmarty wrote:
I confess I'm no expert in forest management or probably anything else. Still, in my 85th year, I am saddened by the length some will go to to deny global warming. Good luck, I fear you're gonna need it.


I guess most people would call me an expert in forest management, multiple degrees, hundreds of books and papers read and written and classes taught, 32 years as a professor of forestry at UW, and >50 years working in forestry if you count work on my grandfather's WVa farm as a boy. With respect, and I do respect everyone's opinion, I'm not sure why one would think the earlier messages attributing current catastrophic wildfires in the PNW to buildup of fuel due to poor management also deny climate change exists. Climate change is happening, it is driven by human activities, and it certainly is a factor. That is my professional opinion. The deniers are those that attribute the intensity of current fires only to climate change only. I've seen our governor, for instance, only talk about climate change when he talks about fire. The "fire triangle" is 1) oxygen, 2) heat, and 3) fuel. Fuel available for wildfires, as well as people building valuable structures and living among that fuel has increased over the last few decades much more than heat through climate change. The problem is complex, but the buildup of fuel did happen, and that abundant fuel is what allows these fires to burn at the level they do. Until the State of Washington and the Federal Government decide to do something with the fuel that accumulates annually in our forests by removal or controlled burns, unfortunately, nature will continue to reduce it in the destructive way as we are now seeing.
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bobjarrard



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:51 pm    Post subject: Been taking a class......... NO FLAMES ---- I am delicate! Reply with quote

I have been taking a three day class to get my motorcycle license here in Nevada, figure at 73 I need a new way to hurt myself. Just a bit of reply to "shovels and buckets will not get the job done". The Chinese built giant engineering works with manual labor. If we reduce the fuel load to 10% of what we see in many urban and sub-urban areas. we will see a benefit in reduction of pyroclastic flows and ember blow over. If you bulldoze a 20-30 fire break before you have a fire, better yet. I did not say that handwork is the only solution but if you study what the team on the ground uses it is 90% hand tools. The fire hoe, USFS round point shovel, the Stihl, and the Pulaski are what all the men and women carry on the front lines. How about lots of hard work and effort before the fires? I do not buy into letting wildfires, tornadoes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters take us down the dark road without a good fight. As to letting others bully me into not clearing "sacred weeds" on my property, they can suck air and kick rocks. I carry, I hunt, I eat what I shoot, and I shoot what threatens me and mine with deadly force. Time for common sense. I cannot change climate change nor the politics of the moment but I can change what is in my reach. So that is my rant but don't take it personally if it rubs you the wrong way, I am a BRAT, a C-BRAT but a brat none the less. Bob Jarrard
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Peter & Judy



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember my fathers story of his time in a fire storm. It was February 1945, he as a 17 year soldier on his way to the Russian front. His orders were to spend one night in Dresden and then carry on to Budapest on the train. That night and the following day the RAF and the USAF dropped one of the heaviest bomb loads of the war. My father was billeted with 10,000 soldiers in the sports hall which was not hit by a single bomb. When the raid was over, his orders were cancelled and he spent the next few few weeks recovering survivors, which there were very few, but mostly dead bodies. Mostly women and children, many reduced to ashes. It was not the intense heat that killed most people, but the lack of oxygen.

Here on Canada we too have experienced many terrible forest fires have burned millions of acres of forest in recent years. Once in a while a town is burned in the fires. This year we have been lucky with plentiful rain, so few fires. A few problems have contributed to these fires. Climate change being one of the major ones. Suppression of fires is also important as fire was seen as bad and all fires were suppressed. In the western forest, fire is an important natural process, so there is an overabundance of fuel. The third problem is that we have built homes, towns and businesses in these forests. It may take many years of huge fires to bring our forests back into balance with nature.

I am currently on the Sunshine Coast trying to kayak in the smoke. Somedays we have to stay indoors due to the heavy smoke. I hope that we will not have to many more years where we have to deal smoke and fire. But I think this is wishful thinking.

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