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garyf



Joined: 01 Sep 2015
Posts: 167
City/Region: Lincoln
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1991
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Story
Photos: C-Story
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

journey on wrote:
I'm not sure how one gets $1600 for windlass, chain, shackle and rope. $700 for the 700 windlass, $200 for the 1/4 ACCO chain and $200 for Buccaneer 1/2" 8 plait braid. If you have the anchors, and the 12H is what I have, that's only $1100. That's all I use to anchor.

Boris


You're watching me closely, Boris!

The Pro-Fish 700 is $765. The Lewmar wireless remote kit is $288. A swivel is $50. And I added four new deck lines for $100 as well.

And now that Harvey reminded me about the easy math, I'm waffling on the chain length a bit - lol. I remember seeing that 7:1 ratio somewhere, but I had forgotten about that. I'm not sure if my OCD can deal with an order of 73' though... 70' or 75' feet sound so much better...

Laughing Laughing Laughing

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garyf



Joined: 01 Sep 2015
Posts: 167
City/Region: Lincoln
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1991
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Story
Photos: C-Story
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

journey on wrote:
The Sea Wolf splice is a little different from the shovel hitch. Its for 3 strand line and has one of those strands brought around and woven through the rope. Giving one the rode. As I said, it's held through thick and thin for over 6 years, from the west side of Vancouver Island to the Sacramento River. If you're not comfortable with that splice, I would suggest that you take the chain and line to someone who does it for a living. The splice should be able to go through the windlass.


I'm wondering how to adapt that splice to the 8-plait line? But then again, I didn't hear any grumblings from Bob about his 8-plait splice hanging up in the windlass...

I hadn't brought it up yet because I know I have some time between putting in and receiving the order to do a little more research on that.
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Marco Flamingo



Joined: 09 Jul 2015
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City/Region: Seattle
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the anchor locks #1 and #2 in your post. #1 is set so that the retaining pin goes through the anchor shackle and effectively pins the anchor to the pulpit. I have no need for the chain tensioner type (#3) because the pin through the shackle holds everything down tight enough. Lock #2 holds the chain so that the anchor chain doesn't pull on the windlass when it is deployed. That may or may not be required depending on your setup. If have chain/rode and you always anchor with the chain completely deployed, you don't need it. If you use a bridle on your chain (usually recommended) it will take the strain and you don't need it. Really the only time that I use it is during a quick stop like lunch. I flip it down at night but all of the stain is taken by the bridle.

A couple things that I don't like about #2. I think that it is intended to flip back out of the way when retrieving the chain. However, the chain can bounce a little and flip it back down. Not much of a problem if don't have to let the chain back out during retrieval. I find that about 80% of the time I find a gob of mud/kelp on the anchor and need to go a little back and forth. Second thing is that the pin and catch plate don't have any type of retaining chain or any easy way to attach one. When you pull the pin, you will have both of items loose in your hands. Always makes me a little uncomfortable heading back to the helm. My #1 lock has a stainless retaining chain on the pin and everything stays on the fore deck.

Style #1 might not work with a swivel unless the pin is skinny enough to go through a link. I'm not a fan of swivels so it's not an issue for me.

Mark
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20778
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
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Vessel Name: thataway
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the subject of "chain stoppers" (first two)- or anchor chain tensioners (the last one). I have had boats which came with all of these at time or another. I took them off. I feel the best way of securing the anchor is with a line around the foredeck cleat and clipped to the anchor. The chain could be "stopped" with one of the stoppers, however this is never the correct way of "holding" the chain when anchored--nor is the chain wheel on the winch. You want a snubber system--I use two lighter lines (smaller than the main anchor rode.).

$ 288 for a wireless remote? If you are single handing,, then it may be worth it. I control the anchor from at the helm, with the up and down switch even when single handing. When I come into an anchorage I go around the entire area looking at the depth sounder and getting an idea of the bottom. I also observe how the other boats are anchored. Then I get near--up wind or up current of where I want to drop the hook. I go forward, and let the anchor restraining system loose. I go to the helm (my anchor is self launching), bump the anchor off the roller so it is just above the water, and when the stern is over the point where I want the anchor to be, I lower the anchor. Then watch the line as I back down slowly on the anchor. When about where I want to be--I take the boat out of gear and let it drift and see where the boat will be with the catenary effect of the chain. Then slowly give power in reverse to be sure it is set. When bringing up the anchor I slowly power to the anchor, (do not pull the boat on the rode/chain), until right over the anchor--then when the boat is directly over the anchor, use the boat to pull the anchor out--then windlass to bring it to the surface--(marked on the chain), and reverse to get any mud off, then pull up on the roller. Since most of this is done with the boat engine, and the up down switch is at the helm.. I have no ned for a remote--even single handing. In the 70 plus years of boating I have never had a remote for a windlass (either deck switches or helm switches). There areaa few cases where I can see it might be nice to have. But it is also one more thing to go wrong.

Quote:
ON the 60 feet of chain. Work probably work, but for me, the math of a 73 feet is so much easier. Run it out to the end, in 10 feet of water I have a 7 to 1 scope.


Harvey, the distance of the bow roller off the water has to be taken into effect. It is 3 feet plus 10 feet with equals 13 feet x 7 = 91 feet, not 73 feet to achieve a 7:1 scope.

Boris good to hear you made it under the Sluice gates--you are correct that the clearance is a theoretical 8.5 feet at 0 tide. Tidal range can be up to 4 feet, plus river stage, so the window for that 8.5 feet is fairly narrow.

The 8 plait could be woven thru the chain as in the splice that Boris uses. Group the 8 strands into 4 bunches. Then weave thru each link in opposite direction. Again you are partially dependent on the sizing with light Dacron line. Yes, my long splice with the 8 plait goes thru my Lewmar 700 with no problem. If you were to have a vertical windless, such as Pat Anderson has--then I don't think it will work as well.

It looks as if you are wanting to buy a bunch of "stuff" at once. I would go as simple as possible to start with. The windlass, chain and nylon line. I was not aware of the Buccaneer Rope company, but it appears to be quality domestic rope made in Alabama. You may want to read up a bit more on swivels. The current boat has one--I have not seen any real advantage--and it is a potential point of failure. It was already there, so I left it. I had experimented with swivels on my large cruising boats, where I was anchoring hundreds of times a year--and decided against the use of swivels, although I had them aboard.

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Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
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garyf



Joined: 01 Sep 2015
Posts: 167
City/Region: Lincoln
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1991
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Story
Photos: C-Story
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
$ 288 for a wireless remote? If you are single handing,, then it may be worth it.


Yes, I wasn't happy about the price either... but I will likely single hand quite a bit... and I don't have an center windshield that opens so can't put the switch near the window. Again, definitely something that could be solved with a cheaper DIY solution, so maybe I'll defer that a bit.

thataway wrote:
It looks as if you are wanting to buy a bunch of "stuff" at once. I would go as simple as possible to start with. The windlass, chain and nylon line.


I can't say that I'm "wanting" to... but I can see where it might look that way. I'm just trying to anticipate everything I need so I can get it done and be happy with the final result. I'm not retired, but covid has my business shut down for now. When I am working, I don't have a ton of free time. If I do something "half way" now, it's hard to predict when I'll be able to finish it properly. I think we've all had those home handyman projects that require 10 trips to Lowe's. I hate that, and don't want that to happen... especially since I'm using mail order for a lot of this stuff. I don't have the experience and knowledge to know everything that can be put off until later (or forever). I really appreciate the willingness of you and others to share their thoughts and keep me in line.

thataway wrote:
I was not aware of the Buccaneer Rope company, but it appears to be quality domestic rope made in Alabama.


They supply the US Navy. I'm not sure if they're the only supplier (probably not)... but the last submarine I was on (at least) had Buccaneer lines. I saw the name on some packaging and I remember thinking it was a cool name.

As always - I really appreciate your input (as well as Marco and Boris and Harvey and everyone else). Such a valuable resource we have here. I also agree with and appreciate your "keep it simple, avoid adding additional points of failure" attitude. I really feel the same at heart... but again, don't have the experience to know what can be eliminated or deferred at this point.
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Foggy



Joined: 01 Aug 2013
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Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the old adage, "Do what you will".

Some do diligence going in, some don't.

The sea doesn't care. It takes anyone.

Aye.

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Micahbigsur@msn.com



Joined: 27 May 2019
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We went from a Rocna roll bar over to a 24# Rocna Vulcan as we really liked the spade we had on an earlier boat, the Vulcan shank is slightly shorter so it stows better on the bow roller and we like not having a roll bar. We have 50' of G4 5/16 chain and 160' of 9/16 nylon braid. We like the heavier chain with a bit less length so we can use the nylon as a spring instead of a snubber you need with all chain out.
We keep a danforth type aluminum fortress anchor as a stern/backup anchor.

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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
Photos: SleepyC
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Garyf, Make your life more easy and go with 75 feet of chain, if you like round numbers.

Bob said:
Quote:
Harvey, the distance of the bow roller off the water has to be taken into effect. It is 3 feet plus 10 feet with equals 13 feet x 7 = 91 feet, not 73 feet to achieve a 7:1 scope.


I'm not so good at math so, I have 3 feet vertical distance, water to bow tip and about 2 feet from there to the windlass. I might have 6 feet of chain that is not in the water out of the 73 feet. Like I said, I'm not so good at math so not sure how that adds up to 13 feet. For me it has worked out like a 7:1 scope, with maybe being off a few inches. (Bob, Where do you get the 10 feet from?)

Harvey
SleepyC Moon


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garyf



Joined: 01 Sep 2015
Posts: 167
City/Region: Lincoln
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1991
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Story
Photos: C-Story
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hardee wrote:
I'm not so good at math so, I have 3 feet vertical distance, water to bow tip and about 2 feet from there to the windlass. I might have 6 feet of chain that is not in the water out of the 73 feet. Like I said, I'm not so good at math so not sure how that adds up to 13 feet. For me it has worked out like a 7:1 scope, with maybe being off a few inches. (Bob, Where do you get the 10 feet from?)


10 feet is the depth of water + 3 feet from the surface to the bow roller = 13



13 x 7 = 91

... but that can be a combination of chain and rope, right? So you can get 7:1 in 10 ft of water with 70 ft of chain (or 75) (or 60)...? It's just more convenient, measurement-wise, to know what you've got when all the chain is out and you're at the splice.

I guess if we really want to go nuts with this... should we be taking draft into consideration? If you're going by your depth finder, isn't that the distance from the transducer to the bottom - or do you calibrate that out in the depth finder setup or something? If the former, seems like you should add another foot for draft of a transom mounted transducer? I haven't set up my depth finder yet (hell, haven't received it yet) but the readings when I was in the Navy were always referred to as "depth under the hull".

14 x 7 = 98

What is a safe way to mark rope? Is paint OK, or would that deteriorate the rope material? Putting a mark on the rope at the 91' point (or elsewhere, depending on your needs) might be handy.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hardee wrote:
Garyf, Make your life more easy and go with 75 feet of chain, if you like round numbers.
Bob said:
Quote:
Harvey, the distance of the bow roller off the water has to be taken into effect. It is 3 feet plus 10 feet with equals 13 feet x 7 = 91 feet, not 73 feet to achieve a 7:1 scope.

I'm not so good at math so, I have 3 feet vertical distance, water to bow tip and about 2 feet from there to the windlass. I might have 6 feet of chain that is not in the water out of the 73 feet. Like I said, I'm not so good at math so not sure how that adds up to 13 feet. For me it has worked out like a 7:1 scope, with maybe being off a few inches. (Bob, Where do you get the 10 feet from?)
Harvey
SleepyC Moon


Harvey it seems to be a fairly common misconception that "scope" means only water depth. In your example you considered the 7:1 scope (70) and then apparently added 3' for the distance of the bow off the water. The scope is only measured at the water surface if the rode is attached at the water surface (I had a snatch block with a snubber line running thru at the forward water line--bob stay fitting--which attached to the chain. In that boat the roller was 8' off the water)

The scope is calculated by the depth of the water, plus the distance off the water the place of the line or chain comes off the roller--in the 22 and 25 about 3 feet off the water. (Also expressed as the height of the bow roller off the sea bed floor.) Therefore to have a scope of 7:1 (which is about 8* angle of pull at the anchor shank head). Thus you would use 13 feet (3' off the water, plus 10' water depth" and multiply x 7 (91 feet) to give 7:1 scope for your C Dory 22 anchored in 10' of water (as per your statement above.). You were actually anchored on a scope of 5.6: 1. In the case you outlined with 73 feet of chain. Does it make a difference in holding? Maybe in a storm, depending on type of anchor.

The amount of chain on deck or height of where it is secured is irrelevant.

To answer Gary F's question about the transducer. You can put the transducer offset (depth under the water (about 12" at rest-maybe an inch on full plane). I just add the 12" in when I figure water depth. We are also good at judging 8* after many thousands of anchoring experience, as we pull back on the rode with the boat in reverse setting the anchor, with the rode nearly bar tight.
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smckean (Tosca)



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is paying attention to the tide state. I do a lot of anchoring. Having a CD means I can spend the night in very shallow spots (a pleasure to me). If one anchors in 15 feet or less of water (my preference), and the tidal swing is 9 feet as it was during a 4 day crusie I just returned from, I can see anywhere from 3 feet of water to 12 feet depending on the tide state.

Obviously, you calculate the scope based on the highest water level the boat will see (middle of the night maybe), but equally important is to be sure that at lowest tide state, anywhere in your swing while at anchor, you don't end up on the bottom! Like thataway, I explore the bottom with my depth finder before I anchor. I like to insure that I have 3 feet of water as a minimum (sometimes 2 feet in restricted areas) anywhere in the tide cycle. I'm always a bit surprised in a morning low tide to see how little water the boat is floating in.....kind of satisfying too when you realize how easy it would have been to "anchor over there" which is now bare rock or mud.

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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh Yeah, the depth. (BIG WHOOPS on me.) 10 foot depth.

No matter where the tide level is currently, I calculate my scope for high tide, and ensure the minimum depth will be at least 5 feet at low tide. Remember, as the tide level goes down, the scope will increase, so the diameter of the "swing" will increase. I use my radar to measure my circle, but a rangefinder would work well too. The other way is to estimate your circle and keep a margin of safety.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon

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Kars10



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been looking at this anchor. Not sure if anyone has experience with it. www.mantusmarine.com
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jkidd



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kars10 wrote:
I've been looking at this anchor. Not sure if anyone has experience with it. www.mantusmarine.com


I Have an M1 as my backup.

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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like it would set quick and keep a good hold but the short shaft and deep curve cause it to get VERY close to the gel coat on the C-Dory bow. Might need to also use there Bow roller and anchor guard.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon

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