Yep.. another Permatrim question and the Venture 23

[crowleykirk]

I've searched the site first. And have read the very positive reviews etc...

Since the Venture 23 is slightly more V I'm curious if any Brats have installed the Permatrim on their 23. We have spec'd a Yamaha 150.

Personally I'd probably run the boat first without one just to see how she handles. But.... If I hear some positive feedback concerning the Venture 23 might just go for it when built. If all goes through.

I know I've posted a lot lately. Thank you all for your patience and replies.
It's greatly appreciated. Including all the PM's and even some emails. I hope I can return the favor some day.

[NORO LIM]

I had twin Yamaha F70's on my 23 Venture with Permatrims, and no tabs. Worked great. Can't comment on a single, but with twin engines and Permatrims I never found my self wishing I had tabs. I doubt that the 2 or 3 degrees more deadrise at the stern on the Venture obviates the desirability of foils or tabs. Others may have experience with both boats with and without tabs and/or foils. If it were I, I'd get the Permatrim.

[tsturm]

[srbaum]

Kirk,
Okay, not exactly a 23 answer, but I put a LOT of hours on my boats. I owned a 22 for 10 years and now have had a 26 for 2. I have owned over 70 boats and still go out almost every day.
When I go out, loads change, as sometimes I have passangers and cargo and sometimes not. When cruising with a load and passengers, the folks move and sometimes the load is not best for keeping the boat level and trim. Winds and seas are also a factor to consider, as that also has a huge impact on trim.
I have found that the trim tabs get used on every voyage to keep the vessel level (port to starboard) and the Permatrim is used to keep the bow trim optimum for boat seas and speed.
I even have a level gauge above the center window and above my helm window to starboard to aid in managing trim. https://www.amazon.com/Sun-Company-306-R-gage-Inclinometer/dp/B003D2AVMO/ref=asc_df_B003D2AVMO/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=&hvpos=&hvnetw=o&hvrand=&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583795260969315&psc=1

[crowleykirk]

Hope to hear from more.

[jennykatz]

We have the venture 23 CC and we have a 115 CT mercury motor
We have lenco trimtabs that came with the boat no permatrim or doelfin attached to engine .Ive had a 22 c-dory cruiser i did put on a fin from Bobs shop in Tampa but i felt the 22 needed a fin the 23 doesn't seem to need it it seems more balanced Also I have 100ft of chain in the front locker for my windlass . When going out in the Gulf I can put tabs down and trim in engine and go through 2-3 ft waves no problem doing 10-12 knots .I would try the boat first before installing any fin .Now if you load up the boat for extended cruising you might need help with a permatrim good Luck Jim W

[DayBreak]

I think I may be the only Brat out here with no trim tabs or Permatrim. We are smaller people in stature and only use our boat with the two of us onboard. We have not noticed port or starboard tilt while underway that needed to be adjusted. We have 35 ft. of chain with 200 ft. of rode and a Windlass up front. The water tank is in the bow and we keep it full. Our emergency items and heavier items are kept in the two forward berth storage compartments. We generally go out to sea when conditions are good and find that 95 % of our travel is at a cruise of 15 to 19 knots. For us, trim tabs would be placed in neutral at this speed to benefit best fuel economy. For us, it is nice to not have the extra drag of trim tabs or Permatrim in the water.

[crowleykirk]

Interesting... so good to hear other views.

Jennykatz... that seem like a lot of chain. That research will be coming up. But I can see the extra weight up front possibly being a positive. We are going with the 150 and 9.9 Yamaha's. So power won't be an issue. I need to research the size difference between the Suzuki engine (fin) and the Yamaha. My guess would be the Yamaha has even more (fin) surface area.

Daybreak... I've never heard of no trim tabs before. Sounds like it works out just fine for you. I agree with the drag. Don't know any real world numbers on how the Permatrim would effect fuel. I'll see what I can find and post here.

Best bet might be to wait and try the boat out. Maybe we'll get some more opinions and experiences. That's what's so nice about the Brats. It's a big reason we're getting a C-Dory.. and I don't have the money for that Aspen Cat yet:-)

[thataway]

My first 22 had no trim tabs or Permatrim. I got to ride in a neighbors 22 with trim tabs--and it made a definite difference. When I bought my first 25, it had trim tabs and I ran for several months without a Permatrim. I added the Permatrim for our AK trip--and hit made a significant difference in ability to handle the chop.

My objection to too much weight in the bow, is that going down wind/waves, you want to keep the bow up. If you never run in heavy weather, the weight forward may be OK. But I have been in some really steep seas running, and I wanted the bow up as high as possible.

As for drag. On the first 25 it may have cut the top speed by half a knot. I put two on the Tom Cat--and it cut the top speed slightly, but loading the boat had more difference.Even with heavy loads and the Permatrims, I was getting in the mid 40's at WOT. Cruising was comfortable in the mid 30's

My feeling is that performance, out of hole, going into chop, etc the permatrim is very helpful. When the engine is properly mounted and trimmed, the Permatrim should ride just on the surface of the water. It if is buried the motor is mounted too low, or improperly trimmed. When just on the surface, the resistance is very little. I don't think the surface area of the anti-ventillation plates on various outboards variance is significant...It would certainly not be a defining factor. Both Suzuki and Yamaha are excellent motors. I have owned several of each. Where you can get service or pants is probably more important. Most of the "issues" which each had have been "fixed" in the current series of motors. Availability of motors may also be a factor.

[DayBreak]

Bob makes a good point in not having the bow too heavy. The bow in our boat is just right, we have not had any issues going with the swell or in heavy seas. It has performed well in heavy offshore weather more than we would ever want to see again. My advise to Kirk is to try out the boat and see how it runs for you based on how you use it.

[gulfcoast john]

Kirk,
I’d suggest before you drill any holes in your new engine’s anti ventilation plate, confirm with your dealer that it won’t affect the warranty. We all agree that it should not, but it’s Yamaha’s call and not ours. I know they get prickly about drilling holes in their grand pianos, piccolos and drum sets, don’t ask me how I know.

I think it’s even more important to confirm that they will rig it using the engine’s N2K connector. That plug is so fat it will be impossible to push it through the rigging tube after it’s filled with cables and fuel hose etc etc. don’t ask me how I know. They will insist on a Yamaha Gateway (which allows only one-way signals out of the engine) about $300. Even if you initially are happy with the standard engine harness and gages, you’ll be glad to have it as an option in the future if you run the backbone back there for future sensors. You could even forgo Yamaha gauges entirely and display all engine N2K data on a $200 MFD, but the dealer won’t like that idea at all. Just a prediction.

Best and congrads, it’s a GREAT engine, so great in fact that I bought two!

John

[jennykatz]

On the mercury 115 CT they use a 150 Hp lower unit so bigger gear case and prop so plenty of torque the only difference would be top end ,and I’m happy with 32-34 mph . The 100 ft of chain is there because that’s what came with my cd -22 years ago . I rarely anchor out so with the windlass it’s all chain so no problems The 60-70 ft extra of chain adds a little more weight it seems to ride better with it Good luck with your boat Jim W

[Jim from New York]

Hi Kurt
I have a 23 venture with a 150 Honda for two years bought it new love it.
It has trim tabs which I find very useful, I’ve had others boats that didn’t seem to need them as much as this model.
I cruise around 22 miles an hour with the motor tilted all the way down and I still need to drop the bow a little more using the trim tabs. The boat runs faster at the same RPM when the trim tabs are implemented. Also in a chop the motor alone would not Bring the bow down enough to smooth the ride definitely need trim tabs for that and of course good to balance the boat when on the way.
Hope this helps
Good luck
Jim

[DayBreak]

Jim,

Thank you for your report. We also have a 2018 Venture (Sport) w/o trim tabs. At about 19 knots, (22mph) I actually trim the motor up very slightly (with a heavy loaded boat for extended travel) to get the bow up slightly and increase the rpm. This is where our Venture runs its best and gets the best fuel economy at cruise speed. We have a Suzuki 140. Good info. Thank you.

[crowleykirk]

Good info.... maybe even going with little more chain at the windless could help balance as well.

Might be good reason "for" the Permatrim.

It's very cool how C-Dory owners from around the country can chat with each other and learn from other's experiences.

Priceless:-)