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13 Character HIN

 
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naptime
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: 13 Character HIN Reply with quote

For those of you that have recently purchased a new C-Dory from Triton with a 13 character HIN I would like to know if you have had problems registering the boat in your state. We registered our new CD22 today in the State of Maryland, which accepts the 13 char HIN. I discussed this with the Maryland DNR and the only thing they will not accept is less than 12 characters. My concern is still what do other states require and may I be in trouble when I go to sell the boat in the future. Ant thoughts?

Dick
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Dreamer



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't imagine you being in trouble. Registering the boat is the new owner's problem. Wink
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thataway



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have just pointed out what is the federal law:
Title 33, Code of Federal Regujlations:

§ 181.21 Purpose, applicability and effective dates.
This subpart prescribes the requirements for identification of boats to which section 46 U.S.C. 4301 applies.
[CGD 79–013, 48 FR 40718, Sept. 9, 1983, as amended by USCG–1998–3799, 63 FR 35534, June 30, 1998; USCG–1999–5832, 64 FR 34716, June 29, 1999]
§ 181.23 Hull identification numbers required.
(a) A manufacturer (or importer), as defined in §181.3 of this part, must identify each boat produced or imported with two hull identification numbers that meet the requirements of this subpart:
(1) A primary hull identification number affixed in accordance with §§181.29(a) and (c) of this subpart; and
(2) A duplicate hull identification number affixed in accordance with §§181.29(b) and (c) of this subpart.
(b) A person who builds or imports a boat for his or her own use and not for the purposes of sale, must identify that boat with two hull identification numbers that meet the requirements of this subpart.
(c) No person may assign the same hull identification number to more than one boat.
§ 181.25 Hull identification number format.
Each of the hull identification numbers required by §181.23 must consist of twelve characters, uninterrupted by slashes, hyphens, or spaces, as follows:
(a) The first three characters must be a manufacturer identification code assigned under §181.31(a) or the importer designation assigned under §181.31(b).
(b) Characters four through eight must be a serial number assigned by the manufacturer in letters of the English alphabet, or Arabic numerals, or both, except the letters I, O, and Q.
(c) Characters nine and ten must indicate the month and year of certification when a date of certification is required. In all other cases characters nine and ten must indicate the date of manufacture. The date indicated can be no earlier than the date construction or assembly began and no later than the date the boat leaves the place of manufacture or assembly or is imported into the United States for the purposes of sale. Character nine must be indicated using letters of the English alphabet. The first month of the year, January, must be designated by the letter “A”, the second month, February, by the letter “B”, and so on until the last month of the year, December. Character ten must be the last digit of the year of manufacture or certification and must be an Arabic numeral.
(d) Characters eleven and twelve must indicate the model year using Arabic numerals for the last two numbers of the model year such as “82” for 1982 and “83” for 1983.

§ 181.27 Information displayed near hull identification number.
With the exception of the characters “US-”, which constitute the country of origin code for the United States, if information is displayed on the boat within 2 inches of the 12-character hull identification number (HIN), that information must be separated from the HIN by means of borders or must be on a separate label, so that it will not be interpreted as part of the hull identification number.
[USCG–2003–14272, 69 FR 33860, June 17, 2004]
§ 181.29 Hull identification number display.
Two identical hull identification numbers are required to be displayed on each boat hull..... etc

For the most part folks who work at the DMV or tag offices know little about boat registrations, and would not know the difference between a 12 and 13 digit HIN. Now if you came in with a 18 digit VIN, then there would be some eyebrows raised! I don't foresee any problem with the CG--except if someone were to document the vessel, or question the HIN. Just seems like a very strange practice to producing a product contrary to what is indicated in Federal Law, and the knowledge that the 13 digit (or more) HIN has been raised as recently as last year and rejected by the CG.

Most folks don't even look at the HIN when they buy a boat. A good marine surveyor will either photograph or make a pencil rubbing of the HIN as part of his report.

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journey on



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a link to the latest Coast Guard requirement I could find, amended to 1999. The HIN is a Federal requirement, and they require a 12 digit HIN. They're very specific not to allow additional numbers near the HIN ( § 181.27,) as I now see Bob has indicated above.

Coast Guard HIN Requirements .

Since we're now truly in a new century, maybe the requirements have been extended to allow/require a 13 digit HIN. As usual, the easiest way is to call Triton and ask why they're on putting 13 digit numbers. If the requirement is for a 12 digit number and they have a 13 digit one, if that boat is ever inspected by the Coast Guard, they'll have some explaining to do, so I think they must have a reason.

Have you contacted the factory?

Boris
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naptime
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I contacted the C-Dory factory (Triton) the day I found the HIN was not in the standard format. The factory does not see this as a problem. I was told by the factory that they would fix it if it became a problem. I had a time issue with the State of Maryland to register the boat and pay the tax by January 16th or I would be fined, so I went ahead and registered the boat. With the year end holidays I wasn't sure how long the fix would take and Maryland dose not care if it is 12 or 13 as long as the HIN on the boat matches the Certificate of Origin, and it does. I had to take a pencil tracing from the hull of the HIN to the Maryland DNR.

So I am sitting here wondering if this is going to bite me in the future and if I should ask the factory to fix it. I know Triton has produced other C-Dorys that have 13 character HINs and was wondering if the owners have had any issues with registration, etc. The reason for this thread. I'm not sure I want to go back to Maryland to change the HIN since it took me 3 trips and 3 weeks to get the boat registered. This had nothing to do with the HIN issue, it had to do with buying the boat out of state and the verifications Maryland needed on the selling dealer and the boat I traded.

As far as I can see now this is a non problem, but I may not be able to see far enough.

Dick
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thataway



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would consider it a "non problem" at this time. I would have written documentation from Triton as to why they feel that a 13 digit HIN is justified--and then the responsibility is with them. (However, given the history of the ownership of C Dory during the last 10 years, I don't think one can count on the people who are building the boats today to be available to back this up in 10 more years).

A phone call to Triton is not proof that they are aware and that this is acceptable to the CG. There are multiple posts on the internet from various agencies which state that if the HIN is more or less than 12 digits, a 12 digit HIN must be obtained. On the other hand, it is against federal law to change the HIN by anyone but the original builder or a state official. The CG has stated that HIN violations (by manufactures) is a common problem, and the penalty against manufactures, dealers or distributers is $2,000 per label up to $100,000 for a series of violations. The manufacture as per section U. S. Code 4310 must notify the first retail purchaser of the failure to comply, and rectify this error at no charge. Details are in USC 4310 and Part 170 Title 33 Code of Federal Regulations. I suspect the CG would intervene if they knew that Triton was producing boats with 13 digit HIN's. However, your county has apparently accepted the 13 digit HIN.

The case I was involved in as a consultant, involved a long legal battle--and interaction with the Florida Marine patrol. The boat had left the factory with only a partial HIN, the factory then later refused warrantee work partly because of the defective HIN. The owner eventually got a court certified document and a complete HIN. This is most likely an unusual case.

Get the documentation from Triton--and enjoy your boat!
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hardee



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I would:
#1. Go use and enjoy the boat.
#2. Start working on/with Triton NOW to get the HIN fixed (Changed to 12 digits.)
#3 Not give up until they fix it or you have documentation from them AND the Coast Guard guaranteeing "safe passage" as far as the current HIN is needed.

JMHO

Harvey
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C-Nile



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with everyone. It troubles me, however, that a manufacturer could put a customer in a situation that could cause them to be unsettled, regardless of whether that situation was real or perceived.

Rich

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sjboysen
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just read the thread, and to all Happy New Year. I will check on Monday if there is an issue with my hull ID numbers. I would not see this as an issue as the only addition is the second zero on the model number (i.e 1600, 1900,2200, etc.). The model year, build year, and month are all correct and they correspond with my records that I keep here for all boats built, and they match the MSO's that I supply.

However if there is an issue with our numbering system we will take the steps necessary to repair. Thanks for all of your input and please don't hesitate to give me a call with any concerns or questions.

Sincerely,

Scott
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naptime
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for everyones advice. I will be writing Triton to correct the HIN. By the way I am not stressed about this issue and I am enjoying the new boat. Hope to see you on the water on one of our many travels.

Dick
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Pandy Girl



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dick, Cong. on the new C-Dory 22, The only thing is with the # is to have a spring Cruise up your way and we all will discuss this at a nice restaurant or over a game of Corn Hole. We all will help to fix this, but it would probably take about 4 or 5 days of crusing. Jim
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim,

I think you have a good plan to fix the problem. Any suggestions on cruising grounds? How about mid to lower Chesapeake Bay?

Dick
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Pandy Girl



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dick, Any where up there would be great for us. Jim & Sandy
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MHA



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:45 pm    Post subject: HIN registration problems Reply with quote

So . . . I just left the local DOL office here; Whidbey Island, WA. When we bought the boat (2012 Venture 23) a month ago I went in to the office with all my paperwork and a big check. I was told that my HIN number was wrong; 13 rather than 12 digits. I was told to come back with a photo of the HIN and they would correct the state paperwork to match. Seemed reasonable. Did I say they were happy to take our check? So today I was a little surprised when I went in with photos and documents and was told I would need to remove my current HIN number (stamped in the fiberglass) and replace it with a new "permanently attached" HIN issued by the State of Washington. I couldn't believe it! That is a pretty important number for tracking the history of this boat for pete's sake.

Needless to say . . . I'm not pleased.

But before I let this get further under my skin I have to believe that this MUST be old news. Others must have run into this problem. If that means you, how did you solve it ? I'd really appreciate hearing from you.

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thataway



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are in a catch 22, created by the owner of c Dory at the time (2012), who admitted they added an extra zero to the number (for some reason--which defies explanation at that time). You have the statement at this time that they knew it was incorrect. (From this thread).

I referenced above I was involved as a consultant/expert witness on a boat with multiple factory defects and in improper HIN number. In that case a member of the state marine patrol had to supervise and witness (sign off on paperwork) that the number had been changed (corrected) when the plate with the proper HIN was fixed to the vessel.

In your case, it is the extra zero. I don't know if the supervisor of the DMV could give you a ruling, that the single extra zero be filled with gel coat and the number continue to be used with a blank space on it. The HIN numbers are molded into the boat when it is produced--not put on after production.

The solution I would go for is to accept this new HIN and install it (on an aluminum plate epoxied to the hull more than 2" away from the original number. I would keep the paperwork with the original HIN. Pass that along with the boat when sold. Also keep a copy if for some reason someone wants to know the history, the show them the number. I have never heard of a law enforcement individual wanting to check HIN, except in cases of stolen or vessels involved in some crime.
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