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Two kinds of boaters: liars and those who've run aground
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Beachnut



Joined: 25 Apr 2018
Posts: 11
City/Region: Port Townsend
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Blue Heron
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:28 am    Post subject: A breakthrough! Reply with quote

Worked on the diagnosis effort this week, using my new shop manual. Everybody has to start somewhere!

Turns out an important element to the story is the "routine" maintenance visit to a local shop back in May: in retrospect I should have started doing my own maintenance this year, since I probably knew enough from the class at Anacortes, have a shop and basic tools, and could have gotten advice right here. But I thought, "Why not have them do the annual work since it's going to be there for the new Garmin installation?" The answer is that I was overcharged for something I should have done, AND.... the techs made an error. A big one.

I was sent back out on the water by this shop with the information that the port impeller hadn't been changed because of a seized lower unit bolt which would eventually need to be extracted. But I wasn't told that the shop didn't properly reconnect the shifting linkage before sending the boat home!

I ordered a Honda impeller kit last week, when I still thought I had a catastrophic port lower unit failure and was getting ready to remove the lower unit and look for a broken shaft or sheared dog gear. Built myself a stand. Drained the lube. Here I was, dutifully following the manual steps and got to the "Now disconnect the shift linkage..." OK, I located it using the diagram (I'm really, truly new at this!) aaaaand... "how do you disconnect something that's already disconnected???"

So, fingers crossed that's all that I have to worry about with this engine. Well, other than the seized bolt under the trim tab, and the bolt holding the trim tab that yours truly sheared off and now have to tap!

I'm cautiously relieved about this information. I still think it was the STBD prop that was spun, but I'll put both new ones on and have a prop shop check both old ones to see if there is a ruined one and a spare to keep.

The next decision is whether I take the boat to A DIFFERENT local shop and get them to deal with the seized bolt and the trim tab bolt. I think there's a significant chance I would break the seized bolt if I continue to flail at getting it loose. I've been spraying it with PB Blaster, letting it sit, tapping it for a little shock, and trying to ratchet it loose. Broke a cheap socket, but otherwise no progress.

OK, folks, if you were a beginner, would you take it to a pro for the bolts? I have the impeller kit here and the new lube and my pump, and I'd like to go through the impeller change on my own for the experience and practice.

I may have crew to go out later this week so I'm motivated to move forward and get back on the water!
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journey on



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3593
City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beachnut,

Think of the consequences if you screw up removing the sheared bolt or strip out the seized bolt. You will have to install new thread insert and then you'll have the salt water/aluminum/stainless problem to deal with. Best to have someone who had the experience and tools to deal with it.

Ask if the shop has ever removed broken/seized bolts. If the answer is yes, let them do it. If no, go to a good auto machine shop and let them remove the bolts. You can do the rest yourself, if desired. Changing the water pump is trivial.

I just dropped (so to speak) the bottom end on Journey On's Honda, for the nth time. Those bolts tend to corrode in place. I tapped them out and used some silicon grease when I reinstalled the 11 bolts. A lot of dirt came out and I was surprised. Now I'm glad I did it.

Boris


Last edited by journey on on Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20779
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I probably would discuss the situation with the shop. But another warning is that they didn't want to deal with the frozen bolt. Talk to shops if you have a choice. A good shop deals with this on a regular basis.

I would probably not continue on the seized bolt. Generally lots of PB blasters, but it has to run uphill. (or slowly creep up hill)... Heat and cooling are probably going to be necessary. I use an impact wrench. Probably manual would be safest than an electric or air powered considering that you know it is badly frozen. The change of the impeller is simple--the extraction of sheared off bolts is not..

_________________
Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL
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Beachnut



Joined: 25 Apr 2018
Posts: 11
City/Region: Port Townsend
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Blue Heron
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Bob. I have to follow hunches sometimes and that's what I was thinking would be the better course. OK, on to the next chapter! I am at least enjoying learning new stuff!
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T.R. Bauer



Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 1726
City/Region: Wasilla
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Whisperer
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had heat from my torch make lots of stuck nuts and bolt not be stuck any longer. It really works!
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Beachnut



Joined: 25 Apr 2018
Posts: 11
City/Region: Port Townsend
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Blue Heron
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I did just buy a torch yesterday... How long would you aim it a the bolt, and at what distance? I don't want to hurt the paint job, and it's the one in that confined space at the base of the lower unit...

The problem with the PB Blaster is that it does drip off rather than soak down into the problem area.

Should I be concerned about flammability with Blaster residue?
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20779
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would bring the torch to as small as a blue flame as you can (assuming a Propane or butane torch--I have both butane and propane, plus acetylene/oxygen) and heat the bolt head itself. Try and protect the surrounding paint, and not get the flame on the paint--there are heat shield products available or wet rags.

You are heating the bolt to expand it, and then get the corrosion to break free, so repeated cycles of heat/cool are necessary. Don't overheat the bolt. Tap the head of the bolt with a ball peen hammer between heatings. Wipe all of the PB blaster off so it does not ignite. However after the bolt has cooled, give another little squirt around the bolt head. Some of the PB blaster is usually forced up into the threads by the heat.

It takes patience a gentle tapping and then more heat. Don't really crank down on the bolt. If you use a hand impact driver tap it, don't hit it with a sledge hammer! The vibration helps loosen the threads.

Also if this is failing, after the heat, there is "CRC Freeze off" - 72* spray and cooling will also contract the bolt. That should do it if the heat has not.

You may have to do some paint touch up---happens with Honda's regularly!
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T.R. Bauer



Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 1726
City/Region: Wasilla
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Whisperer
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting the bolt out is important, you can touch up paint the thing later. Bob is correct - this may take several heat cycles to work it loose. Do everything you can not to break it! And it will eventually come out with patience.
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tsturm



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 1134
City/Region: Soldotna
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: JMR TOO
Photos: JMR-TOO
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

T.R. Bauer wrote:
I have had heat from my torch make lots of stuck nuts and bolt not be stuck any longer. It really works!


A good way to save your paint is find a piece of 3/8 or so steel rod, clamp it in vice-grips, heat the rod end as hot as you can get it then apply red hot end to bolt head, repeat as nec. Thumbs Up
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Beachnut



Joined: 25 Apr 2018
Posts: 11
City/Region: Port Townsend
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Blue Heron
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like blacksmithing! So what should I avoid doing if I don't want to break off the bolt head? Need to understand what causes metal fatigue sufficient to do that. Obviously I crossed the line with the trim tab bolt...

Never torque on the bolt if it doesn't give easily?

And, should I plan on replacing this bolt with something better if and when I do get it extracted?
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tsturm



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 1134
City/Region: Soldotna
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: JMR TOO
Photos: JMR-TOO
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beachnut wrote:
Sounds like blacksmithing! So what should I avoid doing if I don't want to break off the bolt head? Need to understand what causes metal fatigue sufficient to do that. Obviously I crossed the line with the trim tab bolt...

Never torque on the bolt if it doesn't give easily?

And, should I plan on replacing this bolt with something better if and when I do get it extracted?


Will need a replacement bolt & re assemble with antisieze on all bolts Thumbs Up
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journey on



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3593
City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There have been enough suggestions that smack of blacksmithing instead of machine work. If your heating, banging, torquing doesn't work, you'll be looking to helicoil 2 bolt holes, and I assume with stainless. That should scare you.

Please take the boat to a good repair shop and ask them to get the seized bolt out and the broken bolt.

To replace the bolts, order 2 ea from Honda. They're special bolts that don't corrode and aren't stainless. Also, tap out the other holes before you assemble the unit.

After you see what the machine shop does, you may try it on the next screwed up bolt, but not now. Outboard engines and parts are expensive and it's not a lower case but the complete mounting structure.

Boris
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T.R. Bauer



Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 1726
City/Region: Wasilla
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Whisperer
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes they just corrode away and there is little you can do I'm sorry to say. And a repair shop is not a bad idea if it doesn't cooperate.
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tsturm



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 1134
City/Region: Soldotna
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: JMR TOO
Photos: JMR-TOO
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

journey on wrote:
There have been enough suggestions that smack of blacksmithing instead of machine work. If your heating, banging, torquing doesn't work, you'll be looking to helicoil 2 bolt holes, and I assume with stainless. That should scare you.

Please take the boat to a good repair shop and ask them to get the seized bolt out and the broken bolt.

To replace the bolts, order 2 ea from Honda. They're special bolts that don't corrode and aren't stainless. Also, tap out the other holes before you assemble the unit.

After you see what the machine shop does, you may try it on the next screwed up bolt, but not now. Outboard engines and parts are expensive and it's not a lower case but the complete mounting structure.

Boris


Might be a special unobtainium alloy & if they didn't corrode why is the O/P in this mess?
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journey on



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3593
City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

New gear-case to motor bolts are $5.70 ea, a stock item at boats.net. A good investment, especially since you only need 2 ea.

Why they don't corrode is beyond me, though they're magnetic. The aluminum corrodes and seizes around the bolt. Don't replace them with ss or for sure the bolts and cases will interact.

Tap out the case holes and clean off the old bolts, plus use some anti-seize on replacement.

BTW. replacing a drive shaft means pulling gears out of the gear-case and re-shimming. I certainly would not want to do that, though I'd drop the gear case and haul it into the shop. I'm not as young and brave as I used to be.

Boris
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