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ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TyBoo wrote:
... Interesting how quickly electronics evolve and get better/cheaper as they do. ...


Problem is that nothing today is repairable. Yeah, things are cheap enough that you can just buy a new one for just about everything, but the issue is the waste caused by people throwing all those broken things away.

Remember the days of TV and appliance repairmen?
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TyBoo



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So here's the latest.

The new $140 inverter was for sure more efficient than the old Cobra. It ran the coffee maker without stressing the input voltage and ran the microwave oven like a champ. It also started the induction stove without the error code it had before and allowed me to set the temp/power/timer as I wanted but it still didn't heat at all. It just sat there pretending to heat. I think that is what it was doing with the little inverter too when I thought it might've been working.

So, I dropped the inverter off at the UPS Store and the refund has already been applied to my Amazon account. Monday's mail will bring me the $234 pure sine wave inverter. If it doesn't work, the next step is the $367 model. If that one is a bust then I'm either going to have to eat cold food or find a job I guess.

Just so I am clear - Pure Sine Wave and True Sine Wave are the same, correct? As opposed to square wave or modified wave? And the PSW inverter should run without making the video feeds and the radar screen shake, correct?

Today I pulled out the Honda 2000i and plugged the induction stove into it. The motor revved right up and I had water boiling in no time at all. I think that cooktop is going to be a hit on the boat and I might even get another one for use out on the patio at home or when the power goes out. That is unless I have to get the next step up in the inverters then I'll be broke.

Check back Monday. I have to go to a birthday party for my 6 year old great grandson tomorrow.

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SnowTexan



Joined: 08 Aug 2019
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I gotta say, I really appreciate you doing all the legwork for what could be my next inverter 😂. Pure = true. Bonus: you should be able to charge up any finicky laptops or tablets without over heating the power packs/cables. I am currently chasing down a loose neutral in my house, and wish I was tinkering with boat wiring. Hope you eat a lot of cake and don’t step on any LEGO’s barefoot!

Nigel
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the issue is clouded by terminology as well as what we are effectively seeing electronically. The pure sine wave, maybe a little "dirty" Some stepped wave inverters are more than the 3 or 4 steps we see in a MSW inverter, lets say 8 steps, yet are still not really "pure" sine wave as we are supposed to see from Mains power. (The reality is that sometimes the "pure sine wave" is still not real "clean" from mains power. So I suspect that the induction burner need pretty clean power. If you can put an oscilloscope it will show if the wave form is a true sine wave (smooth) or its a number of steps which many would consider representative of a sine wave. For example Aims makes a 3000 watt "pure Sine wave inverter which costs $400 and one which costs about $1000. The one which is the cheaper has multiple cooling fins, and I suspect is all solid state. The more expensive, has a cooling fan, and is considerably larger and heavier. The latter has a transformer, and more sophisticated circuitry.

I have gone with the latter type, more expensive (Magnum or Victron) pure sine wave inverters, since I have seen scopes put on them, and they have a sine wave often better than mains power....

The other issue, is the service life and durability. The Magnum in the RV would run a lot of time, since it was running a household refrigerator. In 10 years of use, I had to replace a circuit board. A friend was running a cheaper "pure sine way" unit, and his would have to be replaced every year.

Only problem is that most of us don't carry an oscilloscope in our back pocket. Another resource is "The Inverter Store". They may have a handle on what less expensive inverter will handle an induction burner. One of the reasons I went with Victron on the boat, is I had verified that it would run the induction plate from information given by some who had tried other inverters. (The Victron is large and heavy, cost was just over $1100, including a 80 amp charger. It can be profiled to run with any types of battery, and has a temperature monitor, as well as a number of other perimeters which can be programed in: such as peak load, resting voltage cutoff, powered voltage cut off, as well as the charging profile).

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Thataway
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ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Only problem is that most of us don't carry an oscilloscope in our back pocket.


O'scopes for you:

Here is one

Or DIY
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
O'scopes for you:

Thanks, I had seen that first one, its a "kit"--certainly cheap enough.

The second is not a complex circuit, but mostly intended for audio:
Quote:
" 150 Hz to 15kHz. Beyond this bandwidth, the displayed signals have a lower quality. Signals up to ±50V up can be injected on the input of the circuit."


Long time since I designed (tube type) circuits, but one could put small transformer and current limiter in and probably deal with 110V AC (60 Hz) with out damage to $700 smart phone. Not sure I want to take chances with that...(easy to test the voltage and current. Probably easy to bring the frequency response down to 60 hz and still see a decent curve). Some of the cheap ones don't have enough resolution to see a multi stepped wave vs a pure sine wave. But it looks as if this one (assembled) and has been used on 120 V AC without issues, for $80 is not a bad "buy". . I probably would put a resister or two in between the lead even using the 10X setting before 110 V attaching to leads.
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ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are modules that connect to a smartphone that make it an O-scope. Not as inexpensive as the examples I posted earlier though.
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TyBoo



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are cooking with induction!

The latest inverter works great. It is sitting on the waste basket in the pic but I have it secured semi-permanently and the wiring cleaned up now.



The cooktop runs on the highest power level while keeping the voltage drop less than the limit.



And I really think the coffee maker is a little faster brewing than it was with the previous inverter.



More later and maybe a question or two if I don't find the answers in the book.
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TyBoo



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What exactly do I connect the small grounding lug on the inverter case to? The only mention of it in the book states:

Quote:
Operation of the inverter without a proper ground connection may result in an electrical safety hazard.
Chassis Ground (Grounding): Ground to vehicle chassis using #8 AWG wire.


On the previous inverter I had an 8AWG wire from the small lug back to the battery negative via a separate path than the inverter DC negative supply. Is that an adequate safeguard given that there is no true chassis to ground the inverter case to?

The inverter will power three appliances, one at a time - the microwave and the coffee maker which both have 3-prong plugs and the new induction stove that has a 2-prong plug.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The inverters have a floating ground, like the Honda Generators. Thus there is no true "ground" or "earth" was we have on the mains power.

But of course then your car or truck, is not really grounded either. There usually the ground is the same potential as battery negative. However there were some cars which had a positive ground. (Packard, Nash, Hudson, Pierce, and Studebaker)...plus most British cars up until the 70.s (not all--my Sunbeam. Alpine was negative ground)....

You will be OK either leaving the ground floating or tied into the negative. But I would take a volt meter on both AC and DC and double check to be sure that there is no potential from battery negative to "chassis ground" on the inverter.

Great to hear that it works.
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srbaum



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TyBoo,
I'm fixing to purchase an inverter, for the exact same uses that you are using yours for. Which inverter did you finally choose?

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TyBoo



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one that works for me is this guy on Amazon.

It is long and heavy, but the shorter, lighter, cheaper ones didn't work with the cooktop.
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ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wish they made small inverters with lugs for the output not sockets. I'd like to be able to wire to outlets in the boat. Yes, there are ways around this, but lugs on the inverter would be better.

I've only seen lugs on inverters that are way too large for a C-Dory.
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smckean (Tosca)



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been wondering why the induction plate is so picky in terms of the quality of its power source.

This is merely a guess on my part, but I'm thinking that since induction heating works by producing a magnetic field in the unit, which in turn induces electrical currents in the pan, the manufacturers design the induction plate to be picky in order to ensure that the magnetic field is just so, and to ensure they have good control over the magnetic field's parameters. Inconsistent input voltage (such as an irregular sine wave) could mess with their designed expected performance, so they don't allow anything but "clean" (expected) power input.

As I think about it, a traditional electric hot plate simply "smashes" electric current through a resistive material (burner coils) creating heat. That's a crude process that could care less about the "shape" of the input current. But an induction hot plate is actually doing some sophisticated electrical engineering processes to produce the magnetic field in the unit. The "big dumb" resistive heating process takes place in the pan, not in the unit.
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ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

smckean (Tosca) wrote:
I've been wondering why the induction plate is so picky in terms of the quality of its power source. ...


Probably because it has some sort of microprocessor controller. Sags or insufficient voltage could keep it from working correctly.
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