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Install Inspection Plates in CD-22

 
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colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 2756
City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Midnight Flyer
Photos: Midnight Flyer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:46 pm    Post subject: Install Inspection Plates in CD-22 Reply with quote

Ok, I've looked through a few threads, but haven't really found what I'm looking for. I am thinking seriously about installing some inspection plates in the floor of Midnight Flyer. I'd like to see where and how others have done this. I've seen a few photos of cut outs, but nothing that really shows what kind of inspection plates to use, or how and where they are installed. This has all come about after reading all the posts on water intrusion inside other boats, the recent awareness of some delamination on my boat between the aft cabin bulkhead and the inside gunnel panel, and also seeing some moisture inside my cockpit floor when I reinstalled my bilge pumps, along with moisture underneath my raised cockpit floor. I'd like to see some links or information about installing inspection plates, and then I'll use this thread to document any work I do. Thanks. Colby
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 17468
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Colby,
I would consider the round screw in plastic plates. They are waterproof, and don't protrude much above the floor. These are standard in the 25 floor over the bilge pumps and the fuel tank sender. I have replaced several of these (with filling the core and screw holes with thickened epoxy.

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Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
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Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
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Home port: Pensacola FL
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colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 2756
City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Midnight Flyer
Photos: Midnight Flyer
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm assuming you mean something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PJWFC4F/?coliid=I1SHWDFCH03PI4&colid=35AXVNH99L8WU&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

At least this is what I was thinking about ordering before I start the work. Currently I'm thinking I would want to install one in the area between the fuel tanks, as this would give me direct access to see what's in the actual core of the sole. I'm thinking the area in the far aft that steps down near the drain plug is actually the hull. Then another plate somewhere between the middle and aft of the raised cockpit floor, which would give me access to that void under the raised floor. Another plate in the cabin a foot or two inside the door, which would give me access to the core in that area, and then perhaps one last plate under where the porta potti sits for access to that area. Although I may not place one there, as I have a small plug that can be removed, with foam under it. I'm pretty sure that area is dry as I also can access it from the storage where I removed foam under the bunk.
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ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 1956
City/Region: Leesburg
State or Province: VA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

colbysmith wrote:
I'm assuming you mean something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PJWFC4F/?coliid=I1SHWDFCH03PI4&colid=35AXVNH99L8WU&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

At least this is what I was thinking about ordering before I start the work. Currently I'm thinking I would want to install one in the area between the fuel tanks, as this would give me direct access to see what's in the actual core of the sole. I'm thinking the area in the far aft that steps down near the drain plug is actually the hull. Then another plate somewhere between the middle and aft of the raised cockpit floor, which would give me access to that void under the raised floor. Another plate in the cabin a foot or two inside the door, which would give me access to the core in that area, and then perhaps one last plate under where the porta potti sits for access to that area. Although I may not place one there, as I have a small plug that can be removed, with foam under it. I'm pretty sure that area is dry as I also can access it from the storage where I removed foam under the bunk.


How much is the void between the flat floor panels and the hull? Is there really a void or is it filled with something to support the cockpit floor?

In areas where putting an inspection plate in the cabin floor is going to cut directly into the core material, doesn't an inspection plate pose a risk of water ingress just by being there? I would think that if there are no soft spots and sounding the floor or a moisture meter does not indicate any issue, then adding inspection plates is a solution looking for a problem.

Like most things, if you look hard enough you're going to find something wrong. However, does whatever is wrong actually make any difference?
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 17468
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The precursor to the flat floor permanently installed was the two section removable floor. That had almost 2 inches between the bottom of the hull and the floor in the center. Out by the edges (chine in the hull) it was tapered to a fine edge. My best guess is that there is slightly more space in the flat floor which has sides to it..

Is the area between the tanks part of the molding for the floor? It looked like its was in Scallywag's video, and he has not gotten back to me if it is or not. I am not sure I would want a hatch aft because there is probably no void or only a few fractions of an inch void (may not be cored). I don't see these inspection plates as being a way to monitor the core condition.

The area between the V berth where the portipotty sits, is also several inches deep--but I agree not a good idea to put an inspection plate there unless there is water. (My 25 has one, but I also have hatches above which allow access.). I have used the round screw in inspection plates for many years, and if done right, they don't seem to leak. But certainly one would not put one in the bottom of the boat (ie the cabin floor). If you want to check the core, the only way I would consider would be to drill a small hole, and fill it back up with epoxy. (Preferably some place where it is not evident, but where you can watch it.)

Yes, Colby, the ones you linked to are similar to what I used. I used the West Marine brand.
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island andy



Joined: 28 Jan 2016
Posts: 38
City/Region: rochester hills
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am reading this thread with great interest. Maybe others can learn from my misadventure, and I, in turn, can learn from others.
A previous owner had installed a bilge pump in the sump just forward of the transom which also has the drain plug orifice opening into it. There were screws used, so I backed those out and found they were very short [+/- 1/2"] and enlarged the holes in preparation for epoxy. Oh-oh, up came small amounts of water. I used the screw holes to suck out what water I could with a syringe, about 3 or 4 oz - little or no void between the bottom of the sump and the bottom of the boat - and completed my repair. However, I was uneasy about how much undetected water might be left, and whether I had addressed the source, or only source, of the water between hull and liner. Yes, the cockpit floor is continuous back to the area between the tanks and the sump itself.
The sump bottom is a couple of inches deeper than the floor between the fuel tanks. So I used a hole saw and cut a 2" hole in the floor between the tanks. Fortunately I removed the pilot drill from the hole saw once I had a kerf going because the space between the floor and the hull was a quarter of an inch or less. There was some moisture there, but I could not find water by rocking the boat and weighting the stern, so I concluded that I did not have an ongoing water intrusion problem, but I now had a useless hole in the floor. I could pass a thin piece of aluminum fore and aft and to both sides without encountering an obstruction. I essentially rebuilt the hole I had cut in the floor between the tanks and have left it
When I had the inside of the hull exposed, I sounded it by tapping with metal. It sure sounded solid, and I think I have read [on this site, thank you!] that at least in 2007s and later the hull is solid fiberglass back there and so I was not surprised to hear what I interpreted as solid.
I have been contemplating putting an access hatch, as is being discussed, forward of the tanks but I am not sure what that would accomplish and I am tired of surprises back there.
IN terms of the construction of the floor, I seem to recall reading, on this site, that there is a structural member on the centerline under the floor but a void on either side. The advice there was to cut holes on either side of the centerline but not on the centerline.
andy

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colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 2756
City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Midnight Flyer
Photos: Midnight Flyer
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, I don't know of any soft spots, and this time of year, any moisture will be in the form of ice! Crying or Very sad But I have found some moisture when remounting bilge pumps and transducers. And I know there is some moisture under the raised floor in the cockpit. Is it a problem? I don't know. I've seen some pretty rickety old boats still afloat, but for piece of mind I'd kind of like to know what's really lurking under my sole. Can't really tell anything from a 1" or smaller hole. Thus the thought of a few inspection plates. But then this isn't a job I'm doing until the heat of summer anyway. 11 degrees out right now (F), and later this week we do have a heat spell coming in where we are forecast to get all the way up to 36! Crying or Very sad I know the area in the bow/berth where I pulled foam out a few years ago to make storage out of, was completely dry. I also see now where I do have some delamination where the inner gunnel wall meets the aft cabin bulkhead. Didn't notice it before, so not sure how long it's been like that. I suspect any moisture getting in there is just going in the void between the raised floor and the hull floor. I hope to remember to take some photos next time I'm on the boat. But if one goes to my photo album, you should be able to see some photos of the aft cockpit area where the fwd fuel tank spacer butts up against the raised floor. Also, someone posted those for me on the other thread regarding some deck work. Colby
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colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 2756
City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Midnight Flyer
Photos: Midnight Flyer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A sweltering 34 degrees out today, cloudy, but the snow has stopped. So took some time to crawl underneath the cover and into Midnight Flyer. Remembered the camera this time, which is really the main reason I went out there today. (That and to check that the mice weren't partying again!) So, the first few photos are of where my gunnels meet the aft cabin bulkhead in Midnight Flyer's cockpit.


Ignore the brown glue crap, it's from another project and only cosmetic hidden somewhat behind the side compartment. But if you look closely you can see the lamination or cracking where the gunnel comes together with the aft cabin bulkhead. I'll add another photo zoomed out a bit more so you can get a better idea where we are at.



The next photo is on the port side. Looks like it is laminating some now as well.



Would appreciate any recommendations on how to proceed to repair this area. Just throw some sealant or fiberglass over it, or grind it down and fiberglass it?

BTW, you can see how the floor is sealed to the aft cabin bulkhead in the port side photos, and I'll attach one more photo of the area right below and behind the cabin door.

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colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 2756
City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Midnight Flyer
Photos: Midnight Flyer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some more photos in the cockpit. These are of the aft edge of the raised floor, with the camera held down in the bilge looking forward towards the bow. There is also a photo looking back at the bilge area.




Thats a dryer sheet hanging off the side of the fuel tank....



The larger center hole is a hole I drilled into the edge of the raised floor last year to dry out moisture. I then filled the hole in with epoxy. The second photo is taken from behind the fuel tank panel. That hole is where the screw use to go thru it into the raised floor. Since the screws were always popping out, I filled the hole in the floor and just left the panel loose. The last photo is looking back into the bilge. Hopefully these photos will give you an idea of what the raised floor is like. It all seems to be one molded piece, with a smooth transition into the area between the fuel tanks, and then continuing into the step down into the very aft bilge sump.

One last photo looking at the aft port corner in front of the fuel tank panel.


Last edited by colbysmith on Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
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colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 2756
City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Midnight Flyer
Photos: Midnight Flyer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So maybe those previous photos will give you an idea of the raised floor in the 2007 CD-22. The next few photos are inside the cabin.


This just inside the cabin door at the base of it.


And the fwd section of the cabin.


Again, just thinking about installing inspection plates, and trying to figure out what to do with the cockpit delamination or cracking where the gunnel and aft cabin bulkhead come together. I know these photos aren't the best, but all I've got for now.
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ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 1956
City/Region: Leesburg
State or Province: VA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My boat is the same as yours.

If it were my boat, I wouldn't be worried about the cracking where the aft bulkhead joins the gunwale, I'd just make sure it was dry and then seal it with some 5200.

On my boat the PO had an issue with water coming into the cabin. It turned out that there was leakage though the gap between the front edge of the cockpit floor and the aft bulkhead. Sealing this seam on the outside with 5200 solved that problem. Your images show that this area is not sealed on your boat.
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colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 2756
City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Midnight Flyer
Photos: Midnight Flyer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, while the photos probably aren't the best, the raised floor is sealed against the aft cabin bulkhead along that seam. In the photos, it's the darker colored area as the sealant is rather old and dirty. It still seems intact however. And the cabin stays dry, even when the cockpit is power washed or rain water has collected if in a bow down position.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 17468
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Colby, From these photos it appears as if the floor pan, does go up on the sides, and aft to the point where the bilge sump is. This appears to be all one piece, probably put in before the deck cap is put in place. Then there seemed to be some tabbing into the hull and the aft cabin bulkhead. Plus come tabbing around the transom. The area under the fuel tanks are probably part of this same molding.

I would just watch the cracking area carefully--this looks like superficial cracking. The tabbing to the hull from the the main cabin bulkhead is shown in some of those photos.

Your choice of caulking. I would choose one which does not discolor as much. My experience is that 5200 tends to yellow. 4000 tends to remain white...but mildew will get into any of these caulkings. I have some areas in my boat from less than 2 years ago which have turned black, and others which have not and remained white. I had tried some of the PL Marine urethane hybrid--and will go back to 4000 even if it is more expensive. My impression is that the PL was showing the mold. I like to be able to remove the sealant and replace it if it discolors or pulls loose.
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