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pcg
Joined: 31 Aug 2018
Posts: 405
City/Region: Sherwood
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Quest
Photos: pcg
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 Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Try your local Shell station. Mine is now selling ethanol-free gasoline as "Premium Clear", but for about $1/gal more.
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Paul |
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localboy
Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 4656
City/Region: Lake Stevens via Honolulu
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: 'Au Kai (Ocean Traveler)
Photos: 'AU KAI
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| Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sure there is some of that. But the main reason gas is SO expensive here (and other states) is pure gov't greed. The pigs in Olympia are gouging residents. Their appetites for money and spending has them slobbering at the trough...and taxpayers get screwed.
| Quote: | | California pumps out the highest tax rate of 61.2 cents per gallon, followed by Pennsylvania (58.7 cpg), Illinois (54.98 cpg), and Washington (49.4 cpg). You’ll find the lowest gas tax in Alaska at 14.66 cents per gallon, followed by Missouri (17.42 cpg) and Mississippi (18.4 cpg). |
https://taxfoundation.org/state-gas-tax-rates-2019/
According to AAA the average cost of a gallon of gas in the US today is $2.550/gallon. In WA State? $3.213/gallon.
We will most likely be re-locating to the SW once I retire in a couple of years.
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"We can go over there...behind the 'little one'....."
Wife to her husband pointing @ us...from the bow of their 50-footer; Prideaux Haven 2013 |
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ssobol
Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 3372
City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
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| Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| localboy wrote: |
I'm sure there is some of that. But the main reason gas is SO expensive here (and other states) is pure gov't greed. The pigs in Olympia are gouging residents. Their appetites for money and spending has them slobbering at the trough...and taxpayers get screwed.
| Quote: | | California pumps out the highest tax rate of 61.2 cents per gallon, followed by Pennsylvania (58.7 cpg), Illinois (54.98 cpg), and Washington (49.4 cpg). You’ll find the lowest gas tax in Alaska at 14.66 cents per gallon, followed by Missouri (17.42 cpg) and Mississippi (18.4 cpg). |
https://taxfoundation.org/state-gas-tax-rates-2019/
According to AAA the average cost of a gallon of gas in the US today is $2.550/gallon. In WA State? $3.213/gallon.
We will most likely be re-locating to the SW once I retire in a couple of years. |
You could get an electric car and avoid gas prices altogether.
Although in some places they are starting to talk about a road tax for electric cars.... |
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DrewbirdII
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
Posts: 53
City/Region: fanny bay
State or Province: BC
C-Dory Year: 1989
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Drewbird II
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:07 am Post subject: |
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This is my understanding of why fuel is getting so expensive.
Premium fuel needs to be around 91 octane, so you won't see ethanol added. Mid-grade fuel is a blend of regular and premium to make 89 octane and has about 5% ethanol. Regular fuel has 10% ethanol added for 87 octane, and 85 octane fuel has 15% ethanol. In order to meet the requirements set out to use ethanol, more expensive fuel components are used such as alkylate to add octane.
Modern engines use the command module to "detune" the motor to run on lower octane without valve knock or pinging!
JIM. |
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ssobol
Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 3372
City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| DrewbirdII wrote: | This is my understanding of why fuel is getting so expensive.
Premium fuel needs to be around 91 octane, so you won't see ethanol added. Mid-grade fuel is a blend of regular and premium to make 89 octane and has about 5% ethanol. Regular fuel has 10% ethanol added for 87 octane, and 85 octane fuel has 15% ethanol. In order to meet the requirements set out to use ethanol, more expensive fuel components are used such as alkylate to add octane.
Modern engines use the command module to "detune" the motor to run on lower octane without valve knock or pinging!
JIM. |
If fuel is more than 10% ethanol it needs to clearly say so. |
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colbysmith
Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 4546
City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2009
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Traveler
Photos: C-Traveler and Midnight-Flyer
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:34 am Post subject: |
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Just throwing more confusion in the mix.  MY F150 is a flex fuel vehicle. When I run the E85 or 15% Ethanol, my mileage goes down. Noticeably. So while the fuel costs less, I'm not really saving any money. Colby |
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TyBoo
Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 5313
City/Region: Warrenton
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1996
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruise Ship
Vessel Name: TyBoo
Photos: TyBoo
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:47 am Post subject: |
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I do believe E85 is 85% Ethanol.
I also believe that US premium gas is E10. At least it is in Oregon.
I quit worrying about it with the new motors. Suzuki says 10% is ok and all my lines and filters are new. I use the magic enzyme stuff for storage but run it straight from the pump most of the time b
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TyBoo Mike
Sold: 1996 25' Cruise Ship
Sold: 1987 22' Cruiser |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20808
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| DrewbirdII wrote: | This is my understanding of why fuel is getting so expensive.
Premium fuel needs to be around 91 octane, so you won't see ethanol added. Mid-grade fuel is a blend of regular and premium to make 89 octane and has about 5% ethanol. Regular fuel has 10% ethanol added for 87 octane, and 85 octane fuel has 15% ethanol. In order to meet the requirements set out to use ethanol, more expensive fuel components are used such as alkylate to add octane.
Modern engines use the command module to "detune" the motor to run on lower octane without valve knock or pinging!
JIM. |
What may be true in Canada may not be true in parts of the USA. I am going to have to disagree with several of these statements.
Fuel prices seem to depend to some degree on the cost of the raw crude oil--ie at $50 a barrel for crude, it will be cheaper than when at $100 dollars a barrel for crude. I have read that the percent of cost of fuel based on crude oil prices is 44% to 70%.
Examples are that in 2008 the peak of average price of gas was $4.06 a gallon and the cost of crude then was $3.46 gallon; in 2019 when average price of gas was $2.25, the cost of crude was $1.18 a gallon. The price of corn (one of the stocks used to make ethanol, is also currently at a low.
Corn prices don't necessarily follow the same trend, but using the highest corn prices ($7.63 a Bushel in 2008) vs some lows in 2019 ($3.88 a bushel).
Pure ethanol has an octane rating of 118. E 85 has an octane rating of 108.
91 or 93 octane rated gas may or may not have ethanol--it depends on the state mandates. For example California mandates that all gasoline (except racing fuel and aviation fuel) have ethanol added. In Florida (and most of the states we regularly travel thru) have ethanol 10% added to the premium fuel (91 or 93 Octane).
From the AAA excellent web site on how gasoline is made:
| Quote: | “Combining” is essentially the opposite of cracking. It unites lighter fractions into heavier ones that are also used in formulating gasoline. Two common combining processes are reforming and alkylation. The former increases the quantity of components that go into making gasoline, while the latter creates “aromatic” hydrocarbons that play a key role in raising the octane of the finished fuel.
The final step in gasoline production is blending. Multiple petroleum products from the various refining processes are carefully combined to create regular and premium grade base gasolines. These fuels have to meet explicit and extensive performance requirements that change with both the season and the location where the fuel will be sold. For example, summer gasoline is blended to vaporize less easily, which helps reduce evaporative emissions. Winter gasoline is blended to vaporize more easily, which helps with cold engine starting and driveability.
Several areas of the United States require specially blended “boutique” or “reformulated” gasolines that burn cleaner and are part of a State Implementation Plan |
 [/quote]
The above roughly shows how gasoline is formulated (different companies put in their additives. In our area, the various grades (no ethanol, 87, 89 and 91 octane) are stored in different large tanks, and most of the fuel is brought in by barges from the Gulf Coast Refineries. The companies additives are added as the truck is filled at the fuel depot.
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Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL |
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localboy
Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 4656
City/Region: Lake Stevens via Honolulu
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: 'Au Kai (Ocean Traveler)
Photos: 'AU KAI
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | You could get an electric car and avoid gas prices altogether.
Although in some places they are starting to talk about a road tax for electric cars.... |
Oh, the pigs in Olympia are already complaining about the lower "revenue" they are allowed to blow, like drunken sailors, because of more efficient or electric vehicles. They will soon implement "pay by mile". Everyone who drives will pay; every day, on every road in the state...either by a GPS tracker you put in your car or via a basic charge. They had volunteers trying it out last year.
Yes, imagine...a GPS tracker on your car so the gobment can track your every movement. If a conservative suggested it, the fascists would scream bloody hell! But because the leftists propose it, it's a "great idea"! No hypocrisy there.
Like I said, we will be re-locating once I retire. This state has turned into Kalifornia.
Rant over. |
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SnowTexan
Joined: 08 Aug 2019
Posts: 185
City/Region: Carlton
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Miss Maria
Photos: Miss Maria
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| localboy wrote: | | Quote: | You could get an electric car and avoid gas prices altogether.
Although in some places they are starting to talk about a road tax for electric cars.... |
Oh, the pigs in Olympia are already complaining about the lower "revenue" they are allowed to blow, like drunken sailors, because of more efficient or electric vehicles. They will soon implement "pay by mile". Everyone who drives will pay; every day, on every road in the state...either by a GPS tracker you put in your car or via a basic charge. They had volunteers trying it out last year.
Yes, imagine...a GPS tracker on your car so the gobment can track your every movement. If a conservative suggested it, the fascists would scream bloody hell! But because the leftists propose it, it's a "great idea"! No hypocrisy there.
Like I said, we will be re-locating once I retire. This state has turned into Kalifornia.
Rant over. |
I am currently watching my kids play in the snow and sit next to a large raging outdoor fire. I just blew off about 100 rifle rounds in about 100 seconds. My neighbors are going to blow off some mortars later because it’s Monday and they feel like it. I have three ethanol free gas sources along my normal routes, no state income tax, reasonable property taxes, homeschool my kids, have friends in the valley of all ranges of faith and beliefs, hunt from my yard, fish across the road. I get where you are coming from with the comparison to a dictatorship disguised as a people’s republic. I too am frustrated by many decisions made on the West side that impact the East. But you might be on the wrong side of the mountains friend. 😂. Come on over the waters fine |
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SnowTexan
Joined: 08 Aug 2019
Posts: 185
City/Region: Carlton
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Miss Maria
Photos: Miss Maria
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| localboy wrote: | | Quote: | | ...I understand in some western/northern states it it almost impossible to find, even at a much higher price |
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I spoke to the manager and she said they used to get it from the refinery in Anacortes. But no more. They now have to truck it up from Tacoma, thru Seattle. |
This reminds me of years ago working a cathodic protection job at a refinery in Ferndale. I asked where the fuel goes and the crew said Alaska. Well where did the raw product come from? Alaska. Later that year in Bellingham on a gas station tank project I asked the owner where his gas came from: Alaskan refinery. Yep makes sense. |
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RobLL
Joined: 05 Aug 2014
Posts: 421
City/Region: Bremerton
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Marinas around here all seem to carry non-ethanol fuel. But I will admit I don't pay much attention to the price.
ps - I prefer non-political comments. I see no need to inflict my political views to other readers on this forum. |
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chucko
Joined: 12 Jul 2011
Posts: 168
City/Region: Davidson
State or Province: NC
C-Dory Year: 1997
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Angel
Photos: Sea Angel
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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I am fortunate enough to have a Shell non ethanol pump 2 miles from the boat. It used to be 93 oct several yrs ago, but now 90 octane. My boat has never sipped anything else thankfully 😎😜
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What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
I say that every time I wax the boat.
1997 22 cruiser, sold may 2023
1998 17 Aquasport Osprey cc sold sold 2012
1977 16 Mako cc sold 1999 |
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DrewbirdII
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
Posts: 53
City/Region: fanny bay
State or Province: BC
C-Dory Year: 1989
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Drewbird II
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Interesting confusion on ethanol blending with gasoline. Ethanol has a higher octane 118 compared to gasoline, a high vapour point RVP which makes it a good component for winter blending. But ethanol has 33% less energy compared to gasoline, which explains the loss in power and mileage. Most refinery's also use alkylate as a component which has a lot of energy and low vapour point compared to gasoline, especially good as summer fuel. Octane and energy produced are not the same thing. The more ethanol you add to the fuel the more energy you need to supplement such as alkylate or in the old days lead. lead was cheap, alkylate is not. Jim |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20808
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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From the National Renewable Energy Laboratory:
| Quote: | | Blending of ethanol into gasoline at 10 volume percent causes the RVP to increase by about 1 psi despite the fact that fuel grade ethanol has a lower vapor pressure than gasoline . The low vapor pressure of fuel grade ethanol is caused by attractive forces between the ethanol molecules. The strongly electronegative oxygen atom in each ethanol molecule is attracted to the somewhat positive hydrogen atoms in other ethanol molecules. The attraction between ethanol molecules means that it has a stronger tendency to stay as a liquid and not vaporize into the more dispersed gaseous state. However, when blended into gasoline at relatively low concentrations the more numerous gasoline molecules disrupt the attractive forces between ethanol molecules and allow the ethanol to readily evaporate, raising the vapor pressure of the blend. |
Lets get back to outboards and look at compression ratios in spark ignited engines. My dad had an early 1930's 5 hp Johnson which he used for many years. Back in the post WWII era most gasoline was leaded. The lead was added as an anti knock (Ping or pre-ignition) Actually "octane" in the USA and Canada is really "AKI" Anti Knock Index. (A combination of the RON [Research Octane Number] and [MON Motor Octane Number] divided by 2.) Many parts of the World use only the Research Octane Number which is higher than the combination, and thus will have "Octanes" higher than the USA. These old outboards had a higher compression ratio than cars because of the need of higher HP out of smaller blocks. Cars were about 5:1 compression ratio, outboards were in the 7:1 compression range. The problem was that the spark plugs were fouled by the lead in the Tretraethyllead (Ethyl) gasoline. Because the lead is toxic in the environment it begun to be phased out in 1970 and was banned from automotive fuels in 1996. Next MTBE was used, but it was water soluble and ended up in the ground water, so Ethanol became the next additive. (As well as improved formulations)
We tried to get lead free gasoline back in the 40's to avoid that fouling of the plugs. As time has gone on, the outboards have increased in compression ratios. The BF 90 probably the most common engine on the C Dory 22 has a compression ratio of 9.7:1. The 200 hp Yamaha has a compression ratio of 10.3:1. The highest ratio production cars are in the 12:1 compression ration, and some racing engines are in the 15:1 compression ratios (burning very high octane fuel). Generally the compression ratios of 9.7:1 are at the upper limit of 87 "Octane" fuel. Interestingly, 87% of the fuel sold in the USA is 87 octane. Only 11% is 91 octane--not leaving much for the mid grade. Some of the new outboard specify 87 octane is fine, others (for example the Yamaha 4 cyl. 200 hp, suggest 89 octane.). I believe that the computers of the engines will pull the timing back a little, thus you won't get as much power (or RPM) when using the lower grade in a motor specified in it.
The higher performance engines require the higher octane--and perhaps this is where confusion comes from that "higher octane gives more power"--which it may not. It depends on the engine.
The other thing to remember that "Gasoline" is a combination of lightweight hydrocarbons with mostly between 4 and 12 carbon atoms per molecule. It is a mixture of alkanes, alkenes and naphthenes. |
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