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Holes in the hull
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Micahbigsur@msn.com



Joined: 27 May 2019
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C-Dory Year: 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would only use spray can foam for the most minor spot areas, you are way past that, proper core is almost easier as it will be at the correct level to glass over. If you don't have time for doing the best job now I vote for your stealing and covering temporarily but don't cut away any more glass first......
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bmcminn



Joined: 20 Jul 2019
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had thought to use the spray foam around the lazarets or if I check the core around the bow hatch. I'm hoping/planning on not removing any fiberglass from these areas. I'm not sure if that core is connected to the sole core in any way? And none of the actual fiberglass, around the hatch or the gunnels, is soft or squishy feeling. But I wouldn't use it in the transom or sole.

For the sole, my plan would be to do it the "right way". Either pulling the whole thing or looking more into that technical deck filler stuff. Does the sole core extend past the bulkhead that separates the helm from the v-berth area? Does it run up the sides?

I also got west system 105 resin, 206 slow hardener, a small can of 205 hardener, and 403 microfiber adhesive filler. And a pump so I can get the ratios correct. And some CSM but I have to get the mat for the sole and the lateral strand stuff still.

Here's a couple pics of what I'm pulling up.



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Chester



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bmcminn wrote:
With the through holes in the hull I was recommended to use Gray Marine Tex instead of epoxy. !


I know nothing about repairing fiberglass. I do know a bit about stress risers though. Those holes you drilled look to me like tear on the dotted line perforations.
Just sayin'.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First forget the marine tex. That is not a satisfactory item to use here.
Second any CSM needs to be specifically epoxy specific.

You are going to rebuild using balsa core material for the core. Could you use foam for the area around the hatch? Yes, But you still need to put a rim of thickened epoxy.

The glass materials, are going to include 1708 as the primary material to use for the floor repair.

The core goes from the transom, to the area in front of the helm. There is none in the sides of the hull, or further forward in the hull (ie under the V Berth.

I agree with Micah on the mix for epoxy/filler. I tend to use about 50% silica (Cabosil) and a filler. (medium or high density, depending on the job). There have been places for microballons. Not a lot of them for the C Dory. But they can be used.

We have described to you the proper repair for the 'holes". Those must be addressed properly now, before you go further. That is feather grind that entire area. Re-laminate the bottom with concentric circles of 6 oz cloth, then at least one layer of 1708. When you put the new balsa back into the hull, you will bed it with a mixture of epoxy thickened with cabosil.

The epoxy and hardener: What are the working temperatures you have currently? Here is the West Systems hardener guide.

The wet core has to be removed. If not it will rot in time. Wet core will have delaminated. In your environment it will go thru freeze/thaw cycles--which will cause delamination.

The problem with putting in plywood, is that it is a different material--and will react differently in the core. Once you put it in--it has to be put in right--not just set in there. You will bed it down, then cover with several layers of 1708, feathered into the rest of the bottom and the sides if necessary.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it wise to do a temporary repair. I guess you could do it properly over the aft part and then put a petition from the rest of wet core, and then go back later and open up this core--but you must have a barrier there. Also any place you put penetrations into the core--you must have an epoxy plug, or other solid material. (Coosa board, solid glass etc)

Go slow, and do it right--I understand your wanting to get that boat out on the water. Once you have opened it up--do it right once.

I looked at the information about Injectadeck. There are some red flags in the way they finished off the surface in my opinion. It may have been a quick and dirty repair--but just to paint some polyester resin over the places where the foam was injected. I would want to do some experimenting with the material before recommending it--and it would NOT be a solution to core issues with the C Dory hull bottom. Perhaps in some deck issues on certain type boats it would be a "solution"... at least for a period of time.

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Last edited by thataway on Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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digger



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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City/Region: Spokane
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C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 22 Angler
Vessel Name: C-Sik
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See page 7 of snoopy-c album. I used Seacast material to repair a similar problem area. This is transom filler used as a repair and then reglassed into the sole. I spoke with numerous folks experienced in using that material. The seacast folks did not initially want me to use it in that manner but after they referred me to an expert in using the material they agreed it was an good repair
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Micahbigsur@msn.com



Joined: 27 May 2019
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City/Region: Big Sur
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you pull out a hatch you may see exposed untreated core, there should not be any voids. Don't use foam to seal, just dig back the core a short way with a dremel or an Allen wrench chucked into a drill then paint with thin epoxy to seal then fill with your mixed up epoxy filler this will form a solid sealed rings around your hatches or any other hole. In the larger boats the vee berth area and sides of the hull are solid fiberglass. In winter almost everywhere will use fast hardener. (It will still be slow it is not like catalist used with polyester resin)

Check out the Jamestown Distributors catalog on line, they have all the core and laminating materials and information on them if you don't have a fully stocked local source, regular chopped strand Matt's binders don't dissolve with epoxy, you can use it but it won't completely wet out. I think you can find epoxy compatible matt. Don't be afraid to use cloth with epoxy it is much stronger but slower build up. (Like surfboards are made).
Transoms are repaired differently if the plywood core is bad. There solid core board is used that can take compression loads.


Last edited by Micahbigsur@msn.com on Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Or do I get a PMM and search for more rotten core, drill, and use that crazy inject-a-deck.


No, You already have delamination. I believe this is true, since you have clean separation from the glass underlying (and above). The "injectadeck" does not resolve delamination--it appears only to be a filler.

You are probably best off going ahead now and seeing how far the water extrusion is--it may not be much more, or it could be a lot....no way to tell right now.

After you had determined how much damage, then buy materials for repair. (the exception is the holes in the bottom--do those now.

You have an excellent--one of the best--supply companies right down the road:
Fiberglass Supply
11824 Water Tank Rd
Burlington, WA 98233
Telephone: (509) 493-3464 M-F
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localboy



Joined: 30 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took it that he was wanting to use the expanding foam only on the lazarette repairs, since his rot extended deep. Not on the sole repair. I wasn’t recommending the foam I posted for the sole repair. The sole repair has to be done correctly with balsa bedded down to the exterior hull then glassed completely over, fared etc.

bmcminn check out Boatworks Today on YouTube. The guy shows how to repair all types of fiberglass damage. It may give you a starting point.

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bmcminn



Joined: 20 Jul 2019
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Photos: bmcminn
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey localboy, thanks for the tip, The Boatworks Today videos are already helpful and it'll be great to have a video reference moving forward.

The CSM I got is from Fiberlay and the description on the website says...

"Orca Chopped Strand Mats consist of chopped glass fibers bonded together using a polyester powder. The mats are designed to be compatible with unsaturated ortho polyester, iso polyester, vinyl ester and a variety of other resins."

So I think that's the right stuff.

Do I use the cabosil and the West System 403 Adhesive Filler at the same time?

I'm wondering at what point do I just remove the entire sole? Is there any amount of moisture or wetness that is OK? Is balsa the way to go for the core or should I look at something different?

I guess if I replace with more balsa then the other stuff has to be close to totally dry, even if I'm "sealing" the area with epoxy. I ordered a PMM and I'm waiting for some garage space so I can get a dry place to do my readings and repairs.

Thanks again everyone. On Monday I'm calling some places desperately looking for garage or shop space. I'm also going to call about someone doing this professionally, but I'm not sure it is going to be a. affordable and b. reliable. At any rate, the rear admiral wants to know how much it would cost to pay someone who "knows what they are doing so that your boat doesn't sink with you in it".

Sheesh.

Thoughts on pro repairs?

In the meanwhile, I'm spending the weekend learning python. Happy Hollidays!
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My advice, is to use mat which is specifically designed for epoxy. When it is designed for polyester resins, the binder will not wet out/dissolve as well, and the layup will be weaker. The other types of mat will wet out to some degree see below. Again--your boat, your choice.

Mat is a filler and smoother--it is not the structural strength although well wet out mat is used for tabbing in polyester construction. A few boats were built with mostly chopper gun (mat type construction) and did not age well! Cloth and Roving is the strength. Read up in West Systems various tutorials. Learn about the types of material their strengths and uses. In today's world 1708 or equivalent is what is used for the overlay--at least 2 layers. 1708 is biaxial fiber bundles at 45*, there is mat stitched to one side of the layer. This takes the place of 18 oz or 24 oz mat which was used in the past. 1708 is stronger In most applications and easier to work with. 1708 works well with epoxy, since it is stitched.

From Epoxyworks:
Quote:
Can WEST SYSTEM® epoxy be used to wet out chopped strand mat? The answer is yes. The fiberglass strand in mat wets out with epoxy, but the binder holding things together does not dissolve. (It does get put into suspension and is sealed in the cured epoxy.) This undissolved binder causes the wet-out mat to remain a bit stiff compared to wet out with a styrene-based resin. For gently curving or flat projects like cabin soles or plywood decks, mat and epoxy should work fine. The fabric does not wet out perfectly clear with epoxy. Wet-out clarity of mat with epoxy varies somewhat with different suppliers, but none of them wet out as clear as a good 4 oz or 6 oz fiberglass cloth.

The texture of the chopped strand mat is quite rough given its random fibers (many of which come loose when epoxy is applied). Mat requires a number of coats of epoxy to fill the profile at the surface. 879 Release Fabric can be applied over the freshly wet-out mat to compress the fibers and minimize the need for many of the buildup coats. Using release fabric in this way will result in a much smoother surface, and if you are going to allow the epoxy to cure before continuing, the surface is ready for buildup coats of epoxy or fairing putty after the release fabric is removed.

4 mil plastic sheeting can also be used over the still uncured epoxy and mat to compress the fibers. Trapped air bubbles can be removed by piercing or slitting the plastic over the bubble before the epoxy begins to cure. If the plastic was clean when it was applied, you can pull the plastic after the epoxy cures to a hard gel and apply epoxy fairing putty or buildup coats of epoxy later the same day. If you allow the epoxy to cure hard before pulling the plastic, be sure to sand the surface completely dull before applying more epoxy.

When choosing chopped strand mat to be used with epoxy, look for mat that is soft and pliable. Some forms are quite stiff and may cause problems wetting out with epoxy. Stiff mat is often older stock and the fibers may take more time to wet out with epoxy.


To answer your question about when to stop--go slowly, drill small holes, a short distance from where you last found wet core. Wet core should be replaced--see my comments about freeze thaw cycles. You want only dry core material--I would would not use any material other than Balsa...move methodically thru the boat--checking with percussion and the moisture meter (which may or may not help.

For your work this time of year--you need to be in some type of shelter, I would prefer a shelter which is heated.

West 403: I rarely use this as a thickening agent. It is micro fibers; very short chopped strand and should be used in applications where you want more strength than filling tie bonding agents, and could be used as you lay down on the inner surface of hull's bottom --the strands tend to stick up and then not give as uniform surface, but OK pushed down with the balsa core. If I were bonding two somewhat uneven surfaces, I would use the 403, or a large void--and it could be used on inner parts of the void around the hatches, but I would use 407 near the edge. (Yes, I have all of these fillers in my garage, so I can choose what I need--same for the resins and hardeners).

West 406 Colloidal Silica--Cabosil, Fumed silica--thickening agent.

West 410. Microlight--sanding filler, is easy to sand and contour.

West 404 High density filler

West 407 Low density filler

West 405 Filiting blend

For filling the areas you have pulled the core out of on the hatches, use 406 and 407, you can put a little 403 in if you wish to give a little more strength. I generally use half cabosil with the filler by volume.

Affordable and good for repairs may not equate. Good shops in our area are charging in the $120 plus or minus an hour!!! My good friends who were the best in this area have retired, and I believe they are still doing a few jobs for friends and long term customers for in the $60 to $70 an hour range--but don't have any overhead--and only doing light and relatively short jobs.

I can tell you that "techs" in factories are not earning anywhere near this wage.

I went over the Boatworks videos--for the most part excellent--but for example--in the core video, he is replacing old core with like material--plywood (or in most of the Taiwan boat "mystery wood", as I like to call it. There are certain places where honeycomb core (NadiCore for example) are called for. I have seen hull sides where NadiCore was used. A pilling hit the boat, and there is a very visible indentation where the honeycomb material has been dented. Difficult repair.

He found the center of the flying bridge to be low--because of the poor construction in the first place, and long term deformation caused by water in the core. His solution drill new drain holes.

One other item--he does not wear gloves. This is very foolish--people have toxicity from adsorbed resin and they can become allergic. Always use Nitril gloves. (I used to use latex, and vinyl--but today Nitrile is so much better.)
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Marco Flamingo



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob's post mentions release fabric or Peel Ply. It appears to be regular nylon "parachute cloth" type of fabric, but maybe it is something special. Any store with fiberglass fabric should carry it. It can be used to smooth out the surface of the repair, whether mat or cloth (I'd recommend cloth for anything to do with the hull).

Surface smoothness is great, but it might not be the biggest benefit. If the Peel Ply doesn't leave as smooth of surface as you want, a second coat of pure epoxy should fix that. Because the Peel Ply rips off the surface of the epoxy, the amine blush is removed. If Peel Ply isn't used, you have to sand the surface to remove the amine blush and get another coat of epoxy to bond. I used it in my hull repair shown in my photo album under "Balsa Core Issues."

Anything that eliminates sanding during fiberglass repair is money well spent.

Mark


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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still wash the surface after using any of the surface smoothing agents. For small repairs, I got a artists book of mylar 10 x 12" sheets. As Mark noted there are other substitutes for "peel ply", but I would be careful, because some fabrics have sizing compound or surface coating--others may stick. If you want to use other material (such as dressmakers' liner), check it on a sample.

Not mentioned previously--but I often do small adhesion and lay up projects to see what exactly I'll get with the materials, and also to do destructive testing. When we were building a boat, I did that fairly often, just to be sure that my technique was going to work well...
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localboy



Joined: 30 Sep 2006
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Vessel Name: 'Au Kai (Ocean Traveler)
Photos: 'AU KAI
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
...he does not wear gloves. This is very foolish...


I would agree. He sometimes does, then other times he doesn’t. I have no explanation. He will advise to wear a respirator in some videos, especially when grinding or sanding, but admits he won’t so the audio of him speaking will be recorded. I’m all about PPE, whether it be gloves, respirators, eye pro, ear pro...once it’s gone, it’s gone. I had a piece of metal in my eye once, despite wearing safety glasses. Never again, I hope.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When doing serious grinding or sanding, I wear a Tyvek suit with hood, mask with filters, and eye protection. Some of my friends who do this full time, use positive pressure breathing units, with air intake outside of the area where resins are being used.

I took care of some of the early fiberglass boat builders, and there were several cases of various forms of blood dycrasias, similar to chronic leukemias. The solvents, and catalysts in both epoxy and polyester/vinyl ester resins are toxic to the skin and respiratory tracts.

Generally if you are using large amounts, and can smell the resin--the respirator is not doing its job. I'll admit I don't use all of the precautions for a very small repair. especially out in the open.

For the respiratory tree--3M has a complete line. Masks start with half face (nose and mouth) to full face with shield---and avoids getting involved with goggles. This latter is the best. You want a respirator cartridge with black label (vapors and fumes)--or yellow--(Vapors, fumes and acids). The cheapest half face masks start in the $30 range, on up. The cheapest full face run in the $60 range all up. I would stick with US made gear. You want as good a seal as you have with a faceplate when diving; no air leakage.

Be safe.
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bmcminn



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



I realized that my family commitments for the month of December combined with my lack of work space made it really challenging to do this project correctly. The guys at the NMI had some concerns with the amount of material that was going to come out and how I would cradle the hull. So I talked to a few pro's and got some quotes over 10K and one under 5K. It was hard to decide to use the least expensive but still 25% cost of boat option, but I think it was the right thing to do for the longevity of the boat. We definitely weren't going to put 10-15 into it and at some point soon the hull was going to start to delam and blister.

One shop next to NMI helped me remove a lot of material and the under 5K folks took out the rest and are doing the job with polyresin, balsa, and new kiwi grip. The core rot was mostly from the rivets holding the panel in place, the port side was especially bad. The original core is two pieces of balsa, one 1" and one 0.5" The shop is going to use 0.75" and 0.5" and mat in between. They also roll the balsa over a drum and then put the resin on so that it soaks around the squares. I guess this guy used to use core where each square was surrounded in epoxy from the manufacturer.

I should have the boat back in a few weeks and I'm really excited. Wife got us a shrimp pot and very nice mooching reel and rod for Christmas so I have some other things to learn.

Now I'm going to start planning the Alaska bulkhead and other repairs (bow hatch seal, rub rails) for the summer.

Thanks for all the advice from the community. The West System website has really good manuals and online help!
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