No More Paper Charts

RobLL · Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:06 pm Post subject: No More Paper Charts

https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/noaa-plans-to-stop-producing-traditional-paper-charts

This will begin mid 2020 and be complete 2025.

I am curious, will phone and pads be able to download one or any of the charts at the appropriate scale (being reduce to 12 scales as I remember), and then GPS your position on it. This could really be good.

thataway · Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:36 pm Post subject:

Micahbigsur@msn.com · Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:39 pm Post subject:

At first I thought this was terrible, as it is always good to have a couple of general paper charts of the area you are in as backups against electronic failure and for a good overview for easy trip planning. But they will still have PDF versions of the new format that will be printable.

DavidM · Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:05 pm Post subject:

I too was a bit appalled when I learned about this. But then I got to thinking. I haven't used a paper chart in a few years, and after I sold our bigger trawler along with all of my paper charts, I haven't missed them a bit.

Jeff Siegel, the creator of Active Captain, argued a few years ago about foregoing paper charts. I have two electronic devices that I navigate with: a permanently mounted Garmin chart plotter and my iPad with two nav apps on it. The odds of losing both of these on a cruise in my home waters is close to nil. Neither use the net for charting, they are previously downloaded from NOAA and updated while I am at home with a fast net connection.

Jeff argued successfully I believe that a blue water skipper could just put his iPad or Android device inside the microwave which would act as a Faraday shield during a lightning strike so it would survive. I haven't tested that theory yet Wink

.

David

Marco Flamingo · Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:10 pm Post subject:

The problem with my simple little Lowrance HD5 is that it lacks a simple little "app." It already has basically all of the "charts" of the East and West coast and inland waters on an SD card. What is missing if (or when) the GPS goes out is that it then would not show my location on those charts, which obviously makes them almost useless.

If I had the ability to "click" on an aid to navigation (or use my finger to tap on the screen) and enter the bearing I got from my hand bearing compass, The app could provide a bearing line on my screen in an instant (much faster than the old way where I had to leave the helm, grab the parallel dividers, find a compass rose on the chart, and march over to the navigation aid or whatever I sighted to draw a bearing line). If I tapped on two items and entered the bearings, and I'd have my location. Enter the time. Do the same thing 10 minutes later. My little "app" could now compute my location, speed, bearing, and maybe even show me a little vector on my screen. No GPS required.

I still have paper charts with bearing lines and scribbled notes (not on board) from past travels. They are kind of fun to look at, but I wouldn't want to go back to using them. Especially if my "screen app" idea is as simple as I'm guessing it could be. Also, on the C Dory I sometimes travel much faster than at displacement speed. The old paper chart thing seems inadequate for planing speeds.

Don't get rid of your old charts. I told another student at an art class that I took that I had old charts and she wanted to buy them. It seems that doing "art work" over old charts is a thing like painting on old whip saws. She said that the more obviously "used" the charts are, the better.

Mark

thataway · Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:15 pm Post subject:

RobLL · Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:34 pm Post subject:

It is always a good idea to have paper charts, AND at the right scale. AAA insists upon preparing booklets of charts each page of which only covers a few miles. At 70 mph you have to flip a page every few minutes. Use the booklet to start a fire!!!!

ssobol · Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:17 pm Post subject:

journey on · Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:59 pm Post subject:

For the last 20 years I've done without paper charts, using chartbooks and electronic charts. May I suggest that chartbooks will continue to be published? I've found them to be accurate and a great help when planning a trip. Even navigated from Vancouver to Juneau and back using chart books. Too cheap to buy the electronic version.

As to GPS going down, remember it was designed for military use. Part of that was EMP protection. And they have spare satellites.

Boris

ssobol · Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:52 pm Post subject:

RobLL · Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:43 am Post subject:

Haven't the Russians put their own "GPS" system in place, and the Europeans have or about to. As likely are the Chinese. I thought I read that modern GPS receivers are using more than one system.

thataway · Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:05 pm Post subject:

GPS "generic" but really refers to USA satellite system of 24 satellites. Used by most chart plotters thru free World.

GLONASS Russian; GPS satellite constellation is used by Garmin, RayMarine and Navico (Lowrance, Books/Gatehouse and Simrad). in addition to US GPS system. These MFD/chartplotters have 5 to 10 hz renewal rate.

BeiDou-3 Chinese; will eventually consist of 35 satellites should be complete some time in 2020, and is said to have millimeter accuracy in differential modes. Active system currently.

Galileo European; 24 operational satellites, should be in place in 2020, with 6 spares. Active system currently, slightly better accuracy than GPS

NAVIC India: should be operational sometime in 2020. Limited to area of India sub continent.

Michibiki (QZSS) Japan (limited footprint, but 10 CM accuracy--said to be used for autonomous cars.

Any of these systems can use a land based augmentation--WAAS in the USA GPS constellation. Surveyors use a variant with accuracy of a cm. Some farmers use variants to give 10 cm accuracy in applying chemicals to farms. There are multiple augmentation systems thruout the World, often used in co-operation with many countries. But as vessels we don't need these extremely accurate positions. (Our charts are often not as accurate as the GPS position).

If you want to keep up with the latest technology this web site has it.

gstraub · Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:48 pm Post subject:

The problem I have is that I am used to ,and like, the RNC visuals. ENCs look different on different plotters depending on how it is set up. So, although my plotter uses ENC data, my tablet running OpenCpn is displaying the RNC usually, although I will switch back and forth depending on what I am looking for. Also, things can show up or not show up depending on the scale of display of the ENC. I know this is all just because the RNC format is what I learned on. Oh well, people keep telling me change is good...

Foggy · Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:59 am Post subject:

The appeal (from the tree huggers) is simplification, save $$.

For recreational boaters, it spells trouble for many, no big deal for a few;
will separate 'the men from the boys'.

Don't panic. You can always print your own.

Aye.

cmetzenberg · Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:34 am Post subject:

Somewhat long overdue in my opinion. In my career i always found plotting positions on a chart to be a waste of time with an ECDIS and radar with map overlay in front of me. A position fix on a paper chart is old info by the time it's plotted. I'm interested in where I am and where i'm going to be. Where I was, was as good as we could get in past years.

With regards to satellite warfare; you'll still have your radars and ability to get range and bearings from land marks. Celestial nav doesn't really require a paper chart, you can just use plotting sheets. The Navy has somewhat recently reintroduced c-nav back in for the updating of their inertial nav systems.