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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20779
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have seen my SG200 give unexpected readings. I have found that my batteries were reported to be down to 4% SOC after an hour and a half of running the fridge (towing the boat to the launch). Since the fridge draws about 2.6a when the compressor is running it is not possible to deplete the battery to that state that quickly. Also, since the motor started right up and the electronics all worked, this reading had to be false. This has happened more than once.

Hopefully after some more cycles, the readings will be more correct.


I suspect that shutting off the battery when you are not using the boat is part of the issue--I believe that these type of gauges are meant to be used long term as in day by day cruising--and cycling the battery banks. It may well be that the system has to "learn again. The other issue, is if you are using the house bank to start the engine--that may give some other issues??. I isolate the electronics from the engine start battery. I learned that lesson many years ago, when I blew the diodes on a very expensive Kenyon wind speed and relative angle system in the early 1970's--voltage drops and spikes during engine start need to be filtered out. Modern electronics are better 40 some years later, but I occasionally still hear complaints on places like THT where someone has electronics problems related to using them on the engine start battery.

What does the SG 200 voltage and amps used, and Health of battery show you after this very brief run?

I would ask the question of Balmar engineers and Rob Collins to see what they say. I leave my house battery bank on and the Norco "Genius" charger running all of the time. (but I don't have one of the SG 200--maybe I need to compare it with the system I have. That gets complicated with two shunts on the same battery bank.).

_________________
Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL
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Micahbigsur@msn.com



Joined: 27 May 2019
Posts: 484
City/Region: Big Sur
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sierra
Photos: Sierra
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't add a link, but Google: Balmar Smartgauge Battery
Monitoring Unit - Marine How To

Seems like what I want, simple, easy, accurate, not affected by multiple charging sources and no amp counting errors. None of which I could say about the old monitors that drove me crazy with inaccuracies.

_________________
Micah Curtis and Dana, RN
2003 C-dory 25 Sierra, 200, 9.9 and 2.5 Suzukis
2012 R25 SC Sequoia (2015-2018)
1978 Folkes 38 SV Audacious (2006-2015)
Micah, KJ6GUF, Dana, KJ6GXG
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20779
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
can't add a link, but Google: Balmar Smartgauge Battery
Monitoring Unit - Marine How To


You must mean the link, I posted today at about 8 am.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20779
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
can't add a link, but Google: Balmar Smartgauge Battery
Monitoring Unit - Marine How To


You must mean the link, I posted today at about 8 am.
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Micahbigsur@msn.com



Joined: 27 May 2019
Posts: 484
City/Region: Big Sur
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sierra
Photos: Sierra
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, sorry missed your link. This is one of many I found on the smartguage with Google. I'm glad they reinforced my choice. It will be a perfect addition to my Solar controllers smart meter menu.
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Avidmagnum12



Joined: 23 Mar 2013
Posts: 668
City/Region: Ocklawaha
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2011
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Otter
Photos: C-Otter
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve used the Balmar Smartgauge on our 25 for about 4 years now. It’s simple and has worked perfectly. I do not have any solar on the C-Otter. If my state of Charge gets below 60 percent I fire up the Honda 2000 and power my battery charger. Used less than 5 gallons of fuel in it for the 4 1/2 months we were live aboard this summer. Others have different power needs and solar can be the answer. Easy installation.
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Tom and Joyce Schulke

2011 CD 25 "C-Otter" 07/2015 to present
2011 CD 25 "My Girl" 06/2015 renamed C-Otter
2004 CD 22 Commuter "Out2C" 03/10 to 06/15
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ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 3362
City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
Quote:
I have seen my SG200 give unexpected readings. I have found that my batteries were reported to be down to 4% SOC after an hour and a half of running the fridge (towing the boat to the launch). Since the fridge draws about 2.6a when the compressor is running it is not possible to deplete the battery to that state that quickly. Also, since the motor started right up and the electronics all worked, this reading had to be false. This has happened more than once.

Hopefully after some more cycles, the readings will be more correct.


I suspect that shutting off the battery when you are not using the boat is part of the issue--I believe that these type of gauges are meant to be used long term as in day by day cruising--and cycling the battery banks. It may well be that the system has to "learn again. The other issue, is if you are using the house bank to start the engine--that may give some other issues??. I isolate the electronics from the engine start battery. I learned that lesson many years ago, when I blew the diodes on a very expensive Kenyon wind speed and relative angle system in the early 1970's--voltage drops and spikes during engine start need to be filtered out. Modern electronics are better 40 some years later, but I occasionally still hear complaints on places like THT where someone has electronics problems related to using them on the engine start battery.

What does the SG 200 voltage and amps used, and Health of battery show you after this very brief run?

I would ask the question of Balmar engineers and Rob Collins to see what they say. I leave my house battery bank on and the Norco "Genius" charger running all of the time. (but I don't have one of the SG 200--maybe I need to compare it with the system I have. That gets complicated with two shunts on the same battery bank.).


I have noticed that some things get screwed up from a engine start. There is a risk that my FF system can get reset to the default settings if the system is on when the engine starts.

The SG200 is connected right to the battery. So I expect that setting the BATT switch to off does not affect it. Since my boat tends to sit at a remote location for awhile between uses I prefer to switch the batteries off and open the main breaker when it is stored. The only draw on the battery when the boat is stored is the battery meter.

Before and after each trip in the boat (or after getting from and before going into storage), the batteries are charged using the onboard charger and shore power.
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Micahbigsur@msn.com



Joined: 27 May 2019
Posts: 484
City/Region: Big Sur
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sierra
Photos: Sierra
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom, thanks for your positive post, one other c-brat messaged me with the same.
I stopped carrying our Honda 2000 when I realized how fantastic our solar covers all our needs at anchor, fridge, freezer and now the watermaker and everything else. After a sailboat with all its shady rigging our 25 cabin top and arch is great for solar, and it is a very easy install. I'm sure the Smartgauge will be the final useful piece to complete a completely new boat wide electrical system.
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Micahbigsur@msn.com



Joined: 27 May 2019
Posts: 484
City/Region: Big Sur
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sierra
Photos: Sierra
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just put up a photo in my album of my new Smartgauge working next to my Morningstar controller display that together are looking great as (for me) a better battery monitoring system than an amp counting monitor. It was also a very easy install, with virtually no programming.

Also put up a photo of my new remote battery fill system. (I have to use the more high voltage tolerant flooded batteries because of the Suzuki's charging system).
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localboy



Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 4656
City/Region: Lake Stevens via Honolulu
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
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Vessel Name: 'Au Kai (Ocean Traveler)
Photos: 'AU KAI
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our SG is the original but only a few yrs old. There was a huge debate on what battery monitor was "best" on the TF site. Personally, I like the simplicity of the Smartgauge; both installation and use. Like I've said before: I'M NOT AN ELECTRICAL ENGINEER.

Some of the hard-core TF posters were adamant about other, more complex units. The debate got borderline ridiculous and nearly devolved into personal insults. I finally ignored it all. I told one member that boating is my respite from life's sh*t-sandwich and it wasn't worth trying to convince the hard-core believers that something simple could work.

We have not had our simple solar system enough to have any solid input. I can say it seemed to keep up with our draw, including an older Norcold refer, but that's starting with a fully charged house battery in summer sun.

_________________
"We can go over there...behind the 'little one'....."
Wife to her husband pointing @ us...from the bow of their 50-footer; Prideaux Haven 2013
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ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 3362
City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
Quote:
I have seen my SG200 give unexpected readings. I have found that my batteries were reported to be down to 4% SOC after an hour and a half of running the fridge (towing the boat to the launch). Since the fridge draws about 2.6a when the compressor is running it is not possible to deplete the battery to that state that quickly. Also, since the motor started right up and the electronics all worked, this reading had to be false. This has happened more than once.

Hopefully after some more cycles, the readings will be more correct.


I suspect that shutting off the battery when you are not using the boat is part of the issue--I believe that these type of gauges are meant to be used long term as in day by day cruising--and cycling the battery banks. It may well be that the system has to "learn again. The other issue, is if you are using the house bank to start the engine--that may give some other issues??. I isolate the electronics from the engine start battery. I learned that lesson many years ago, when I blew the diodes on a very expensive Kenyon wind speed and relative angle system in the early 1970's--voltage drops and spikes during engine start need to be filtered out. Modern electronics are better 40 some years later, but I occasionally still hear complaints on places like THT where someone has electronics problems related to using them on the engine start battery.

What does the SG 200 voltage and amps used, and Health of battery show you after this very brief run?

I would ask the question of Balmar engineers and Rob Collins to see what they say. I leave my house battery bank on and the Norco "Genius" charger running all of the time. (but I don't have one of the SG 200--maybe I need to compare it with the system I have. That gets complicated with two shunts on the same battery bank.).


Same thing happened again today. The boat was plugged in and charged up. Before we left the house, the SOC was 93%. When we got to the ramp about 1.5 hours later, the SG200 said the SOC was 1%. The only thing during the ride was the SG200 itself, a couple of USB ports (but nothing plugged into them), and the motor tilt was run once up and once down for the trailering. Once the boat was running, the batt SOC was 100% after 20 minutes. When we arrived home (which is actually longer than the trip there with the same electrical loads) the SOC was 94%. Since the engine started fine and all the electronics worked, clearly the battery was not at 1% charge when we launched the boat.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20779
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I certainly don't have an answer as to the readings of the Balmar Smart Gauge. But it seems this would be a case where the Balmar Smart Gauge, with a shunt would give the reading of how many amps were used in that hour or so that appeared to discharge the battery...

My only point thru all of this, is that it appears that the newest SG has an added capability, which might help resolve issues--such as this mystery. There is no doubt that the SG gauge works well for most people..
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Micahbigsur@msn.com



Joined: 27 May 2019
Posts: 484
City/Region: Big Sur
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sierra
Photos: Sierra
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Localboy, that's a good story. I am not an engineer either and simple works for me. My Morningstar controller display has so many menus, options and histories that any techy would be entertained playing with it.
On the other hand tracking down an intermittent electrical glitch is no fun showing 1% without a low voltage error code showing on the guage is a clue. Maybe an intermittent bad or loose connection, or during trailering vibration a fault in the guage shows up?
I have a Blue Seas clamp on DC ammeter/voltmeter but it doesn't have a recording feature to find intermittent faults, but it might be the thing to try first in real time to help understand what is going on, anyway Ssobol you seem really handy with electronics so I'm not sure I can add anything that isn't already obvious to you. I think somewhere I read tha Balmar has good customer service in relation to the Smartgauge, maybe they could help?
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20779
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ideal way to track this (or other gremlins) issue is to data log the voltage and amperage in and out. There is a relatively in-expensive way--take a little fiddling, using Dataq Model DI-1100 4channel data logger. ($69) reading from a large shunt (you might have to experiment with the output to get signal down to parameters of the data logger and use their shunt to have the current from 4 to 20 mA. A windows program allows recording and viewing of the data.

Onset has a "Plug and play" logger, which will run about $500 with program, and shunt sensor.

There are DIY such as: a system using an Arduino Uno R3. Although this is made for solar/wind, any charging sources will work. This can monitor a number of other items. Probably total cost using the above data logger in the $100 range. Of course all of these include a shunt, and get more complicated. However with data logging, you can pinpoint the time, and probably source of problems.

The SG200 has a bluetooth dongle, which will send the data to a smart phone (Not sure if this is available from Balmar yet, but it is listed in the catalogue) That will allow someone in the vehicle to monitor the amps in or out, as well as voltage--to give clues as to what is happening.

The Victron 712 has the capability of sending data directly to the smart phone out of the box.
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Micahbigsur@msn.com



Joined: 27 May 2019
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Photos: Sierra
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kind of hate to bring this old thred back, but I said I would be a guinea pig for the non shunt simple Balmar Smartgauge.
On my 6 hour trip down from Puerto Escondido to La Paz our Smartgauge apparently did not like out new style Suzuki's charge voltage of up to 15 volts. When we arrived it read 26 volts and was flashing an overvoltage error code. It looks like it had switched over to a 24 volt meter, when the actual volts on my Blue Seas voltmeter read 13.2. We reprogrammed it several times going through every possible menu option that we could find to bring it back, ( I have very little patience with menus and error code troubleshooting, especially when the manual does not have a troubleshooting section, a waste of an hour and a half). There is an automatic set on the voltage and so it is not manually set.
If I had originally programmed it to not to over voltage alarm maybe it would not have lost its sense of voltage but I suspect the internal computer has it's brain scrambled and the unit will have to be replaced even though the unit is rated to a much higher voltage.
Suzuki owners may want to avoid the Smartgauge. I will not replace it as one early failure 1 is to many for me and I will never trust the system, I haven't yet called service as I am in Mexico till May which makes things difficult, I will call and follow up if Balmar has an explanation for the failure.
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