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Micahbigsur@msn.com
Joined: 27 May 2019 Posts: 484 City/Region: Big Sur
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sierra
Photos: Sierra
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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The Coast Guard just issued an advisory: not to charge lithium batteries without supervision and to limit the use of extension cords and power strips, review emergency dutys, identify emergency escapes, check firefighting equipment and a couple more. _________________ Micah Curtis and Dana, RN
2003 C-dory 25 Sierra, 200, 9.9 and 2.5 Suzukis
2012 R25 SC Sequoia (2015-2018)
1978 Folkes 38 SV Audacious (2006-2015)
Micah, KJ6GUF, Dana, KJ6GXG |
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colbysmith
Joined: 02 Oct 2011 Posts: 4551 City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2009
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Traveler
Photos: C-Traveler and Midnight-Flyer
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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https://news.yahoo.com/coast-guard-issues-warning-charging-122450724.html
Buried within this report was one small line that caught my attention. It said that boats like this should have a posted watch. Yet, all crew members were asleep. I wonder if they did have a posted watch, if they would have been able to catch the fire in time to warn all the passengers? |
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BrentB
Joined: 15 Jul 2006 Posts: 4419 City/Region: Greenwood
State or Province: IN
Photos: BrentB
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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TV tonight said all crew were asleep and no one was on watch duty _________________ Brent Barrett |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20814 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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"Fire Watches" are common in the military. Certainly on Naval ships they are posted. We stood anchor watches, if there was any question of storms, or questionable conditions.
On the charging side of things, Ray the previous owner, had installed 3 dual USB charging stations: helm, shelf over hanging locker and on the"navigator" side of the console. They are all limited by a 2 hour charging timer. If you want more, you have to push the button again to start the timer over. For the most part Li ion batteries are safe. But one of the participants at the Alton Gathering had a cell phone battery get so hot it melted the case. _________________ Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL |
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Foggy
Joined: 01 Aug 2013 Posts: 1521 City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
Photos: W B Nod
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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In the mentioned Coast Guard report is also the information that lithium
battery caused fires are very rare.
Stay tuned for new developing next generation battery storage along with
solar.
Aye. _________________ "I don't want any cake" - said no one ever.
If someone tells you they don't eat cake, unfriend them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life. |
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hardee
Joined: 30 Oct 2006 Posts: 12633 City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
Photos: SleepyC
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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:19 am Post subject: |
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Foggy wrote: | In the mentioned Coast Guard report is also the information that lithium
battery caused fires are very rare.
Stay tuned for new developing next generation battery storage along with
solar.
Aye. |
"...lithium battery caused fires are very rare."
Funny, TSA doesn't think so. Or several hundered folks who have had cell batteries melt or burn, electric scooterboards, and vape devices burn up in their pockets or under charging conditions.
Harvey
SleepyC
_________________ Though in our sleep we are not conscious of our activity or surroundings, we should not, in our wakefulness, be unconscious of our sleep. |
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Foggy
Joined: 01 Aug 2013 Posts: 1521 City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
Photos: W B Nod
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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:42 am Post subject: |
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Yes, that sounds correct despite
"Cases of lithium-ion battery fires have been isolated, but well publicized."
—https://heavy.com/tech/2016/10/how-to-prevent-lithium-ion-battery-fires-rechargeable-batteries-can-cause-fires-note-7-hoverboards
and
"Tesla claims that gasoline powered cars are about 11 times more likely to catch
fire than a Tesla. It says the best comparison is fires per 1 billion miles driven. It
says the 300,000 Teslas on the road have been driven a total of 7.5 billion miles,
and about 40 fires have been reported. That works out to five fires for every billion
miles traveled, compared to a rate of 55 fires per billion miles traveled in gasoline
cars."
—https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/17/news/companies/electric-car-fire-risk/index.html
Also, users are at fault for fires from misuse of Li-ion batteries (dropping,
crushing, crowding, overcharging, extension cords, etc).
Should we be used to seemingly contradictory statements from federal sources by now?
Aye. |
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ssobol
Joined: 27 Oct 2012 Posts: 3374 City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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The problem with Li battery fires is that they can be difficult to extinguish. Commercial boats should carry fire gloves and burn proof bags for battery fires the same as on commercial aircraft (RC hobbyists also have them).
There should also be a burn proof area for recharging batteries, especially larger size ones. Again, like serious RC hobbyists have. Li batteries should not be left unattended when charging.
A number of hobbyists houses and cars have burned due to Li battery fires. |
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Foggy
Joined: 01 Aug 2013 Posts: 1521 City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
Photos: W B Nod
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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Li-ion batteries have liquid electrolytes and little, if any, metallic lithium.
This means a small Li-ion battery fire is a Class B fire and can be doused with
water or a standard ABC or BC extinguisher. Our local FD uses foam extinguishers
for these fires in vehicles.
Powder or dry chemical extinguishers (Class D) should not be used.
Aye.
Grandpa used to say, "Play with fire and you'll get burned." |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20814 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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I got a phone call from a delivery skipper, who is a friend, about this incident. One of his points was that a fire watch is mandatory on such vessels:
46 CFR § 185.410 - Watchmen.
§ 185.410 Watchmen.
The owner, charterer, master, or managing operator of a vessel carrying overnight passengers shall have a suitable number of watchmen patrol throughout the vessel during the nighttime, whether or not the vessel is underway, to guard against, and give alarm in case of, a fire, man overboard, or other dangerous situation.
There is nothing about the size of vessel, or number of passengers--this is a requirement period.
He was of the impression (for several reasons) that the crew had little if any fire fighting training. One point he made is apparently someone opened the door to the galley--and that would give more oxygen to the inflatable gas and material.
Many of my professional mariner have mandated fire fighting training on a regular basis--just as CPR and First air certification is also required.
The various types of li ion batteries have different risks of explosion or over heating. As many technical items they must be respected. I have 200 amp hours of 12 volt LiFePO4 batteries under my bunk. Perhaps I should put a fire suppression system there? But Have redundant temperatures sensors from the battery chargers which serve these batteries. Also the large batteries, have internal protection from thermal run away--which usually happens either during high capacity charging or discharge. (Ie the battery conducitn shuts down internally if the temp or current exceeds a certain limit. Small batteries don't have these type of devices.
We won't see the final report for 12 to 18 months. But CG has issued several bulletins about standing fire watches, and about safety precautions with any battery charging system. |
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Sea Wolf
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 8650 City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Dive Boat Fire |
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Agree with the need for a standing watch, but if they were charging batteries in or near the mid-deck galley area and the people were below that with only one egress which was through the galley area and seeing how quickly energetic a lithium ion battery fire can be, it might not have been possible to get out anyway ?
Seems to me that out of 30+ people in the sleeping area someone would always be marginally awake anyway to spot a fire in the area above. But how do you get out?
Need better planning to avoid this impossibly risky situation.
Joe. _________________ Sea Wolf, C-Brat #31
Lake Shasta, California
"Most of my money I spent on boats and women. The rest I squandered'. " -Annonymous |
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Pacificcoast101
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 717 City/Region: Torrance
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: No Pressure
Photos: No Pressure
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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thataway wrote: | I got a phone call from a delivery skipper, who is a friend, about this incident. One of his points was that a fire watch is mandatory on such vessels:
46 CFR § 185.410 - Watchmen.
§ 185.410 Watchmen.
The owner, charterer, master, or managing operator of a vessel carrying overnight passengers shall have a suitable number of watchmen patrol throughout the vessel during the nighttime, whether or not the vessel is underway, to guard against, and give alarm in case of, a fire, man overboard, or other dangerous situation.
There is nothing about the size of vessel, or number of passengers--this is a requirement period.
He was of the impression (for several reasons) that the crew had little if any fire fighting training. One point he made is apparently someone opened the door to the galley--and that would give more oxygen to the inflatable gas and material.
Many of my professional mariner have mandated fire fighting training on a regular basis--just as CPR and First air certification is also required.
The various types of li ion batteries have different risks of explosion or over heating. As many technical items they must be respected. I have 200 amp hours of 12 volt LiFePO4 batteries under my bunk. Perhaps I should put a fire suppression system there? But Have redundant temperatures sensors from the battery chargers which serve these batteries. Also the large batteries, have internal protection from thermal run away--which usually happens either during high capacity charging or discharge. (Ie the battery conducitn shuts down internally if the temp or current exceeds a certain limit. Small batteries don't have these type of devices.
We won't see the final report for 12 to 18 months. But CG has issued several bulletins about standing fire watches, and about safety precautions with any battery charging system. | All crew members from Truth Aquatics are trained to use fire fighting equipment onboard their boats. There is no door, repeat, NO door to the galley/salon while people are onboard. Sliding doors at the rear of the galley are closed when the boat is empty at the dock. _________________ Phil Garner
2008 Tomcat 255
No Pressure
Southern California Marine Life
https://www.flickr.com/photos/southern_california_marine_life/albums
My Photos
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/?pseudoid=%7bAC42A235-FD0A-464A-B559-1CC5843C95FB%7d&name=Phil+Garner&st=11&mode=0&comp=1 |
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ssobol
Joined: 27 Oct 2012 Posts: 3374 City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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thataway wrote: | ... Also the large batteries, have internal protection from thermal run away--which usually happens either during high capacity charging or discharge. (Ie the battery conducitn shuts down internally if the temp or current exceeds a certain limit. Small batteries don't have these type of devices.
.... |
If the battery shorts internally (aka 787 batteries) there's not much you can do to shut them down. That's why the 787 batteries are now housed in a big steel box.
While personal device batteries can overheat and catch fire from charging, they are more likely to run away due to physical damage (i.e. internal shorts). This is why the FAs on commercial flights say not to move the seats if you drop your phone so it doesn't somehow get crunched and set the battery off. |
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RobLL
Joined: 05 Aug 2014 Posts: 421 City/Region: Bremerton
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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I was told, but I have not confirmed it, that two men were awake on the bridge. They may not have been as close to sleeping quarters as regs require. |
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Discovery
Joined: 08 Dec 2003 Posts: 1239 City/Region: LOA, UTAH
State or Province: UT
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Discovery
Photos: Discovery
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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If memory serves correctly. The stairway to the sleeping area was open without any doors. The galley doors on the rear of the boat were 8' to 10' wide and were always open. I remember a briefing on the location of the escape hatch, but the hatch was quite small and not easily accessed.
Dixie and I looked at some old high 8 videos over the last few days. There were a few taken of diving from the Conception. Lots of good dives and good times. We would have up to 9 or 10 family members on the Conception dive trips.
I remember Truth Aquatics as being a first-class operation. We always booked in the fall. Trying to be there for the opening of the Lobster Diving Season. Lots of night dives. Memories of younger days. _________________
Brent and Dixie,
1984 22' Classic sold 2003
2003 24' TomCat sold 2005
2006 TC255 Discovery Sold 2020
2006 CD 22' Angler Sold 2014
https://share.delorme.com/FBrentBetenson
"Free men do not ask permission to bear arms." ~ Thomas Jefferson |
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