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Micahbigsur@msn.com



Joined: 27 May 2019
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Coast Guard just issued an advisory: not to charge lithium batteries without supervision and to limit the use of extension cords and power strips, review emergency dutys, identify emergency escapes, check firefighting equipment and a couple more.
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colbysmith



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://news.yahoo.com/coast-guard-issues-warning-charging-122450724.html

Buried within this report was one small line that caught my attention. It said that boats like this should have a posted watch. Yet, all crew members were asleep. I wonder if they did have a posted watch, if they would have been able to catch the fire in time to warn all the passengers?
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BrentB



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TV tonight said all crew were asleep and no one was on watch duty
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Fire Watches" are common in the military. Certainly on Naval ships they are posted. We stood anchor watches, if there was any question of storms, or questionable conditions.

On the charging side of things, Ray the previous owner, had installed 3 dual USB charging stations: helm, shelf over hanging locker and on the"navigator" side of the console. They are all limited by a 2 hour charging timer. If you want more, you have to push the button again to start the timer over. For the most part Li ion batteries are safe. But one of the participants at the Alton Gathering had a cell phone battery get so hot it melted the case.

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Thataway
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Foggy



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the mentioned Coast Guard report is also the information that lithium
battery caused fires are very rare.

Stay tuned for new developing next generation battery storage along with
solar.

Aye.

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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Foggy wrote:
In the mentioned Coast Guard report is also the information that lithium
battery caused fires are very rare.

Stay tuned for new developing next generation battery storage along with
solar.

Aye.


"...lithium battery caused fires are very rare."

Funny, TSA doesn't think so. Or several hundered folks who have had cell batteries melt or burn, electric scooterboards, and vape devices burn up in their pockets or under charging conditions.

Harvey
SleepyCMoon


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Foggy



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that sounds correct despite

"Cases of lithium-ion battery fires have been isolated, but well publicized."
https://heavy.com/tech/2016/10/how-to-prevent-lithium-ion-battery-fires-rechargeable-batteries-can-cause-fires-note-7-hoverboards

and

"Tesla claims that gasoline powered cars are about 11 times more likely to catch
fire than a Tesla. It says the best comparison is fires per 1 billion miles driven. It
says the 300,000 Teslas on the road have been driven a total of 7.5 billion miles,
and about 40 fires have been reported. That works out to five fires for every billion
miles traveled, compared to a rate of 55 fires per billion miles traveled in gasoline
cars."
https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/17/news/companies/electric-car-fire-risk/index.html

Also, users are at fault for fires from misuse of Li-ion batteries (dropping,
crushing, crowding, overcharging, extension cords, etc).

Should we be used to seemingly contradictory statements from federal sources by now?

Aye.
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ssobol



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with Li battery fires is that they can be difficult to extinguish. Commercial boats should carry fire gloves and burn proof bags for battery fires the same as on commercial aircraft (RC hobbyists also have them).

There should also be a burn proof area for recharging batteries, especially larger size ones. Again, like serious RC hobbyists have. Li batteries should not be left unattended when charging.

A number of hobbyists houses and cars have burned due to Li battery fires.
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Foggy



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Li-ion batteries have liquid electrolytes and little, if any, metallic lithium.
This means a small Li-ion battery fire is a Class B fire and can be doused with
water or a standard ABC or BC extinguisher. Our local FD uses foam extinguishers
for these fires in vehicles.

Powder or dry chemical extinguishers (Class D) should not be used.

Aye.
Grandpa used to say, "Play with fire and you'll get burned."
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thataway



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got a phone call from a delivery skipper, who is a friend, about this incident. One of his points was that a fire watch is mandatory on such vessels:

46 CFR § 185.410 - Watchmen.
§ 185.410 Watchmen.
The owner, charterer, master, or managing operator of a vessel carrying overnight passengers shall have a suitable number of watchmen patrol throughout the vessel during the nighttime, whether or not the vessel is underway, to guard against, and give alarm in case of, a fire, man overboard, or other dangerous situation.

There is nothing about the size of vessel, or number of passengers--this is a requirement period.

He was of the impression (for several reasons) that the crew had little if any fire fighting training. One point he made is apparently someone opened the door to the galley--and that would give more oxygen to the inflatable gas and material.

Many of my professional mariner have mandated fire fighting training on a regular basis--just as CPR and First air certification is also required.

The various types of li ion batteries have different risks of explosion or over heating. As many technical items they must be respected. I have 200 amp hours of 12 volt LiFePO4 batteries under my bunk. Perhaps I should put a fire suppression system there? But Have redundant temperatures sensors from the battery chargers which serve these batteries. Also the large batteries, have internal protection from thermal run away--which usually happens either during high capacity charging or discharge. (Ie the battery conducitn shuts down internally if the temp or current exceeds a certain limit. Small batteries don't have these type of devices.

We won't see the final report for 12 to 18 months. But CG has issued several bulletins about standing fire watches, and about safety precautions with any battery charging system.
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Sea Wolf



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Dive Boat Fire Reply with quote

Discovery wrote:
https://ktla.com/2019/09/02/crews-rescuing-at-least-30-people-on-boat-near-santa-cruz-island-coast-guard/

We used to dive from the Conception each fall in the 1990's. As I remember, there was only one below decks access/egress to the main deck.

Sad.

https://www.truthaquatics.com/conception/

The bunk layout on the lower deck.


Agree with the need for a standing watch, but if they were charging batteries in or near the mid-deck galley area and the people were below that with only one egress which was through the galley area and seeing how quickly energetic a lithium ion battery fire can be, it might not have been possible to get out anyway ?

Seems to me that out of 30+ people in the sleeping area someone would always be marginally awake anyway to spot a fire in the area above. But how do you get out?

Need better planning to avoid this impossibly risky situation.

Joe. Disgust

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Pacificcoast101



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
I got a phone call from a delivery skipper, who is a friend, about this incident. One of his points was that a fire watch is mandatory on such vessels:

46 CFR § 185.410 - Watchmen.
§ 185.410 Watchmen.
The owner, charterer, master, or managing operator of a vessel carrying overnight passengers shall have a suitable number of watchmen patrol throughout the vessel during the nighttime, whether or not the vessel is underway, to guard against, and give alarm in case of, a fire, man overboard, or other dangerous situation.

There is nothing about the size of vessel, or number of passengers--this is a requirement period.

He was of the impression (for several reasons) that the crew had little if any fire fighting training. One point he made is apparently someone opened the door to the galley--and that would give more oxygen to the inflatable gas and material.

Many of my professional mariner have mandated fire fighting training on a regular basis--just as CPR and First air certification is also required.

The various types of li ion batteries have different risks of explosion or over heating. As many technical items they must be respected. I have 200 amp hours of 12 volt LiFePO4 batteries under my bunk. Perhaps I should put a fire suppression system there? But Have redundant temperatures sensors from the battery chargers which serve these batteries. Also the large batteries, have internal protection from thermal run away--which usually happens either during high capacity charging or discharge. (Ie the battery conducitn shuts down internally if the temp or current exceeds a certain limit. Small batteries don't have these type of devices.

We won't see the final report for 12 to 18 months. But CG has issued several bulletins about standing fire watches, and about safety precautions with any battery charging system.
All crew members from Truth Aquatics are trained to use fire fighting equipment onboard their boats. There is no door, repeat, NO door to the galley/salon while people are onboard. Sliding doors at the rear of the galley are closed when the boat is empty at the dock.
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ssobol



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
... Also the large batteries, have internal protection from thermal run away--which usually happens either during high capacity charging or discharge. (Ie the battery conducitn shuts down internally if the temp or current exceeds a certain limit. Small batteries don't have these type of devices.
....


If the battery shorts internally (aka 787 batteries) there's not much you can do to shut them down. That's why the 787 batteries are now housed in a big steel box.

While personal device batteries can overheat and catch fire from charging, they are more likely to run away due to physical damage (i.e. internal shorts). This is why the FAs on commercial flights say not to move the seats if you drop your phone so it doesn't somehow get crunched and set the battery off.
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RobLL



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was told, but I have not confirmed it, that two men were awake on the bridge. They may not have been as close to sleeping quarters as regs require.
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Discovery



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If memory serves correctly. The stairway to the sleeping area was open without any doors. The galley doors on the rear of the boat were 8' to 10' wide and were always open. I remember a briefing on the location of the escape hatch, but the hatch was quite small and not easily accessed.

Dixie and I looked at some old high 8 videos over the last few days. There were a few taken of diving from the Conception. Lots of good dives and good times. We would have up to 9 or 10 family members on the Conception dive trips.

I remember Truth Aquatics as being a first-class operation. We always booked in the fall. Trying to be there for the opening of the Lobster Diving Season. Lots of night dives. Memories of younger days.

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