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RobMcClain



Joined: 21 May 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:17 pm    Post subject: Canadian Flag Reply with quote

My wife and I are planning to cruise into Canadian waters this summer for ~4-6 weeks. In addition to the Gulf Islands we hope to visit Victoria, Princess Louisa Inlet, and points north towards Desolation Sound. I know I'll have questions for the group as our trip planning progresses, but right this moment I have a collateral question pertaining to flag etiquette.

I will be flying the US flag on the stern, and from the bow staff I plan to fly a courtesy Canadian flag. I note the proper dimensions of the Canadian flag are 2 to 1, so a flag 9" wide (the length on the staff) would properly be 18" long. Most of the courtesy flags on the market seem to measure 12x18", including the Canadian flag, although I have found one that measures the proper 9x18". I want to display proper respect for Canada and their flag so I am planning to buy one of the proper dimension. But... with that said, I am curious if anyone really notices the difference. What size courtesy flag do most folks fly? With the 9" width on the staff I'll need to modify the attachment points so it will fly.

Rob
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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HI Rob,

The Canada flag is of a different proportion that most other flags. You found that out. I believe mine is a 9x18, but it is on the boat so I'm guessing there.

Whatever a flag's shape, its vertical dimension is its hoist, and its horizontal measurement is its fly. The rule of thumb calls for the ensign to be one inch on the fly for each foot of boat length overall. The courtesy flag used in foreign waters is normally half the size of the yacht’s own ensign.

Several types of flags concern the yachtsman. Most important is the nation’s flag, often called the ensign. There are three choices of ensign. One is the traditional stars & stripes, the second is the yacht ensign with a fouled anchor over a circle of 13 stars. The third is the Union Jack, a field of blue with white stars. Discretion often lies with the owner, except that the 50-star flag must be flown outside US waters and by documented boats in all waters.

The courtesy flag occupies a place in the hierarchy second only to the vessel's own national ensign. This is usually at the foreward starboard spreader on a sailboat or high on an antenna or outrigger on power vessels that have no mast.

(From Coastal Boating .net) because my Chapmans is on the boat.

Harvey
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Peter & Judy



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for planning to fly a Canadian flag while you are in Canadian waters. Most boaters from the U.S. do not. Last summer we saw dozens U.S. cruisers and sailboats while we sea kayaking in the Discovery Islands, Desolation Sound and also in Barkley Sound. I think I could have counted the number of Canadian flags being flown on one hand and maybe I would have even had a finger or two left over.

While on Lake Powell last fall we flew a U.S. flag on Mistaya that was almost as big as our Canadian flag. I had trouble finding a suitable flag in Salt Lake City. Canadian Tire stores are a good source for basic boating supplies and usually have a good selection of marine flags.

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colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I boated in the Gulf Islands, Desolation Sound and the Broughtons last year, I flew the Canadian flag out of respect to those of the land (water) I was visiting. Too confusing about all the rules of what goes where, what I had available to fly them on and the various flag sizes I had available, so I just flew the Candian Flag on my flagstaff, removing the US Flag until I crossed the border back home. (Positioned on the starboard stern.) Colby
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:23 pm    Post subject: ! Reply with quote

colbysmith wrote:
I just flew the Candian Flag on my flagstaff, removing the US Flag until I crossed the border back home. (Positioned on the starboard stern.) Colby


Flying the Canadian flag on the stern staff would make you a Canadian vessel. Not correct.

We have been visiting lands outside of the US in our boats since 1962. We always fly the US National Flag (Not fouled anchor-which should never be flown outside of US waters) at the stern staff. We respected the customs of the country we were visiting. (I was taken to task by a Danish Policeman because we didn't strike our American Flag precisely at 6 PM, as the Copenhagen City hall was lowering theirs.--we were expected to be aboard our boat at precisely 6 PM to comply--and we did.) They expected it to be raised or presented at 8 AM.

The Q (Solid yellow) flag is flown at the starboard spreader or starboard antenna, if no spreader, as a vessel enters a country. Q means my vessel is healthy, I have not cleared in and wish to be granted clearance. After clearing Customs, we replaced the Q flag with the national flag of the country we were visiting. (We carried cloth, and some cloth paint--and sewed/painted some national flags which were not available--we had a collection of 50 national flags.)

A few countries want you to fly the their national flag as soon as crossing their boarder or into their waters. In that case, the Q flag should be flown below the courtesy flag of that country.

It is proper to fly the country's flag at the bow staff, if you have one.

Colors should be made at 8AM and retired at sunset. The Flag of Nationality is the first one made, and the last one retired. There are circumstances, particularly at sea, that flags are flown 24 hours a day.

Review current US Power Squadron flag etiquette here.

Quote:
The U.S. national ensign, sometimes called "50-star" or "Old Glory," is the proper and preferred flag for all U.S. vessels. Your boat should wear it from 0800 until sunset, and when you enter or leave port during daylight or at night, weather and rig permitting. While in port, if you leave your boat and will not return before sunset, lower and stow the national ensign before you go.

The national ensign worn by a vessel must be the flag of her registry—not necessarily that of the owner or operator.....U.S. national ensign has a 10:19 hoist/fly ratio. (Canadian, British etc are 1:2--pretty close. Italian is 3:2, Mexican is 4:7 Irish is 1:2...these are flags which could be confused)

Size of Flags
Flags are often too small.
The national ensign flown at a flag staff at the stern of your boat should be one inch on the fly for each foot of overall length. Round up if too small.

On powerboats, these flags should be 5/8 inch on the fly for each foot of overall length.

When you visit foreign water, your boat should display a courtesy flag (the civil ensign of the country you are visiting)
If your vessel is mastless, it should wear this "courtesy flag" at the bow,
If your vessel has a single mast: Move any flag normally flown from the starboard spreader, to the inboard starboard halyard or, if your boat has only one halyard per side, to the port spreader halyard.
Do not fly a foreign courtesy flag after you have returned to U.S. waters.


Where many are differing from this, is that courtesy flags are being flown from a Starboard Antenna or outrigger. This is not accepted by US Power Squadron (as above). I have never had a bow staff, and have always flow the courtesy flag on a power boat from a starboard antenna.

Normally a Yacht Club Burgee (C Brat burgee) would be flown from a bow staff. That would be displaced by the national flag of the country you are visiting. On a sail boat, the yacht club burgee and any officer flags would then be flown from the port spreader. Why fly a Yacht club burgee in foreign lands? There are a number of international organizations--for example we flew the burgees of Seven Seas Cruising Association (Commodore) and Ocean Cruising Club so that other members and host would recognize our vessel.

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colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Flying the Canadian flag on the stern staff would make you a Canadian vessel. Not correct.


Hey Bob,
Yeah, I figured I'd have it wrong.... So, doing some more reading, when I get into Canadian waters this year, would it be appropriate to leave my US Flag alone on the starboard stern, and place the Canadian Flag from my starboard VHF antenna? This will undoubtedly place the Canadian Flag well above my US Flag. And how far up the antenna should I fly it? I'm thinking perhaps just a few feet above my roof line, so it doesn't place much stress on my antenna. Colby
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DayBreak



Joined: 16 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read that the American Flag should be at a higher elevation than the foreign flag in foreign waters. I know it seems snobbery but that is what I have read. A good location for the foreign flag would be on the bow rail on a C-Dory so that it wouldn't be too much higher than the American Flag on the stern. Also, the American Flag is larger and so it would help with the elevation factor in this placement.
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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

colbysmith wrote:
Quote:
Flying the Canadian flag on the stern staff would make you a Canadian vessel. Not correct.


Hey Bob,
Yeah, I figured I'd have it wrong.... So, doing some more reading, when I get into Canadian waters this year, would it be appropriate to leave my US Flag alone on the starboard stern, and place the Canadian Flag from my starboard VHF antenna? This will undoubtedly place the Canadian Flag well above my US Flag. And how far up the antenna should I fly it? I'm thinking perhaps just a few feet above my roof line, so it doesn't place much stress on my antenna. Colby


Colby, I think you are on the right track. That is what I figured out after studying Chapmans. And what I have been doing for several years, like 12 plus. I fly the Stars and Stripes on the starboard stern, and the Canada courtesy on the stbd antenna extension, not on the antenna. Twice, (which isn't much but ...) I have been complimented for having the flags right, when I was up in Canada. One, an RCMP Marine Patrol who came to look at my C-Dory, and once by a very proper gentleman from the Royal Victoria Yacht Club when I was up at Princes Louisa.

Bob, I didn't know about the 0800 showing colors timing, but I do the striking at sunset, and the Yacht Ensign is only flown in US waters.

Gary, I would be interested in where that came from. I can't say I have seen that, but wan't looking probably.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon

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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gary f wrote:
I have read that the American Flag should be at a higher elevation than the foreign flag in foreign waters. I know it seems snobbery but that is what I have read. A good location for the foreign flag would be on the bow rail on a C-Dory so that it wouldn't be too much higher than the American Flag on the stern. Also, the American Flag is larger and so it would help with the elevation factor in this placement.


Can you cite where you read that? Even on Merchant ships the national flag is flown at the stern staff, and the courtesy flag of a nation visited is flown from a structure above the bridge.

There are conventions that no flag in the US can be higher on the same flag halyard or mast. At Yacht clubs, and same naval installations, there is a flag staff, with a gaff, and spreaders. The US flag flies from the gaff, various officers and occasionally courtesy flags of visiting nation's yachts are flown from the spreaders.
Many Navy ships still have a "Gaff", from a pole mast in the superstructure. In that case the US flag might be higher. Navy regulations require the stern staff at anchor or moorage in a foreign nations. Generally Naval ships do not fly courtesy flags, but I have seen it done during special ceremonies.

There can be situations where the US flag might be higher--one of those if flow from the gaff of the aft mast, or 2/3 up the leech of a Marconi rigged. That may not be higher in a yawl.

What I quoted was from US Power Squadron. It updates Chapmans, in that it addressed (somewhat) The flying of two flags from a spreader. There are other issues, but not which pertain to our C Dorys.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And how far up the antenna should I fly it? I'm thinking perhaps just a few feet above my roof line, so it doesn't place much stress on my antenna. Colby


Colby, When I have a boat with the "extensions and whips" I fly the courtesy flag from the top of the extension. With a smooth antenna, I place it about half way up--since if you go too high, it may damage the antenna with speed and winds.

On the current boat, we have a fairly high radar arch aft, and antennas on each side. If I go into Canadian waters, I would place the bottom of the courtesy flag about 2 feet above the radar arch.
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DayBreak



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Harvey for asking. I can't find where I read that the American flag must be higher than the Canadian flag in Canadian waters. I must have misunderstood what I was reading in the past. I apologize. The U.S. Power Squadrons sums up the details of flag etiquette quite nicely and so I must recant my comment about flag height. Sorry about that. Thanks for speaking up. Gary.
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colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have read that the American Flag should be at a higher elevation than the foreign flag in foreign waters. I know it seems snobbery but that is what I have read. A good location for the foreign flag would be on the bow rail on a C-Dory so that it wouldn't be too much higher than the American Flag on the stern. Also, the American Flag is larger and so it would help with the elevation factor in this placement.


I agree with Gary on this. I too remember reading something to that effect. In my case, my Canadian Flag is actually a bit bigger than my US Flag. I was pretty sure I also read somewhere that on small pleasure craft where there is only one "flagstaff", it was then proper to fly the foreign flag at that position in place of the US flag. Of course I also know there is a lot of stuff out there that is wrong. And I've read the Chapmans as well, which is pretty much in realm with Bob's knowledge. In any case, I think this summer when in Canadian waters I'll go ahead and leave my US Flag where it's at, and fly the Canadian flag half way up the starboard antenna. Colby
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hardee



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gary f wrote:
Thanks Harvey for asking. I can't find where I read that the American flag must be higher than the Canadian flag in Canadian waters. I must have misunderstood what I was reading in the past. I apologize. The U.S. Power Squadrons sums up the details of flag etiquette quite nicely and so I must recant my comment about flag height. Sorry about that. Thanks for speaking up. Gary.


Hey Gary, Not a problem. I was thinking you might have confused "on land, in USA" display vs on the water, aboard a vessel. Confusion can happen; I think I heard Confussious say that one time Laughing

Harvey
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thataway



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To make it more interesting the Seattle Yacht Club (I don't know if any members are C Brats) notes that:

Quote:
Courtesy Flag (Host Country National Flag)
Strict protocol and flag etiquette require that when a foreign national flag is flown as a courtesy flag, it be flown unencumbered (alone), on a sailboat from the starboard spreader and typically on a powerboat from a starboard antenna. .
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Robert H. Wilkinson



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread has been very interesting. Thanks all for the information. I don't profess to know much about flag etiquette but it does bother me when they are disrespected. The worst case was one night sitting at a red light in front of a Macdonalds Restaurant. The young lad they sent out to bring in the flag untied the line from the pole then stood there and let it fall to the ground. He then picked it up, scrunched it into a ball and carried it under his arm into the restaurant. I don't totally blame the young lad, he should have been taught by his manager how to perform the duty properly. If you aren't going to fly it with the respect it deserves - Don't fly it!


Rob

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