The C-Brats Forum Index
HomeForumsMy TopicsCalendarEvent SignupsMemberlistOur C-DorysThe Brat MapPhotos

Webasto / Espar knockoffs
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The C-Brats Forum Index -> General Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
AKMel



Joined: 13 Jan 2017
Posts: 47
City/Region: Gustavus
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-esta
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Espar on our 22 Cruiser makes some noise when igniting, and on high. I find most of the jet sound is coming from the exhaust. The little turbine apparently causes the diesel fuel to do a violent burn. Installing a muffler in-line might help. I'll see how much quieter the knockoff is with the muffler. I see a stainless muffler on ebay for $15.

I couldn't find an accurate all-inclusive price on the Wallas 1300. It "sounds" like a nice unit.

Note that I have an Espar on the 22. I started the thread looking for input by anyone who has installed a knockoff on their Dory. I could have gotten a Planar at the time for half the price, but wasn't comfortable with an unknown. I want to sleep well in some remote Alaskan cove. With time and research I am becoming comfortable with the idea of a knockoff diesel heater on the water, properly installed, and may eventually put one on our aluminum fishing boat if I like the one I just bought. If the safety is there one can't beat the price.

_________________
Mel

My idea of a tragedy is a deduction killed by a fact.

2008 22 Cruiser 2017-present
2003 Alumaweld Intruder 2012-present
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 3362
City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKMel wrote:
... Installing a muffler in-line might help. I'll see how much quieter the knockoff is with the muffler. I see a stainless muffler on ebay for $15.
...


This video shows the difference in sound with and without the muffler. The difference was quite noticeable. About 5:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSwYpQ0tQyQ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AKMel



Joined: 13 Jan 2017
Posts: 47
City/Region: Gustavus
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-esta
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I started install of the Chinese parking heater yesterday. My observation was that the kit was quite complete. Other than the usual mount location questions, I did encounter two difficulties. 1) The pump mount is all rubber. I didn’t take a lot of care running in the mount screw, and the rubber tore at the mount hole. Part of the problem was mine. I drilled a pilot hole while holding the bracket in place and the drill bit eroded some rubber. My Espar pump mount was rubber bushing mounted in metal bracket, which is a better system 2) I mounted the muffler, and proceeded to cut the stainless exhaust tube to length. The heater end fit well, better than the Espar. (My Espar exhaust connections leaked and I had to use high temp silicone to seal them). The problem was the cut end. The muffler connection and the cut stainless tube were the same diameter. Thus the exhaust tube wouldn’t slide over the muffler. I had to cut a slot in the tube and flare it, which left a small leak. Fortunately it is outside and won’t matter.

I hope to tackle wiring next week.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 3362
City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AkMel: I hope you're taking lots of pictures to put in your gallery so others (or at least me) can see what you've done. Thanks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AKMel



Joined: 13 Jan 2017
Posts: 47
City/Region: Gustavus
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-esta
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The heater works, but I have a major problem: It does not shut off when the set temperature is reached. It slows down as it should, but does not shut off, even if the area reaches 5˚above set temp. (I haven't let it go higher but am sure it would). I have to shut the heater off manually using the control panel.

Also, I can turn the heater on even if the set temperature is below the area ambient temperature. That's like having your room at 70˚ when the thermostat is set at 65˚ and the heater comes on anyway.

I deduce it's a bad controller, or a bad mother board (in the heater itself). Hopefully the former as it's an easy fix. If the seller won't supply one they are $20 on ebay.

The company has been very good about getting back to me overnight. The difficulty is the person thinks in Mandarin.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
san juanderer



Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 234
City/Region: Stanwood
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1990
C-Dory Model: 22 Angler
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it truely a thermostat or a rheostat ?
I installed a Ardic heater some time ago, the dial device was not a thermostat.

_________________
Cdory 22 Angler
SeaSport 24XL, Etec 250 hp (sold)
Rosborough RF246 (sold)
Commander 30 Sportfish (sold)
Olympic 26 XL (sold)
Glassply 19 (sold)
Olympic 23 (sold)
Bayliner 38 Motoryacht (sold)
Olympic 20 (sold)
Fiberform 16 (sold)
Olympic 18 (sold)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
AKMel



Joined: 13 Jan 2017
Posts: 47
City/Region: Gustavus
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-esta
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not a rheostat. It appears to have a high tech electronic thermostat.

The controller has many other functions:
It shows on bar graphs the heat output.
Another graph notes the signal strength from the remote control if one is used.
It illuminates a little pump when the fuel pump comes on.
When the glow plug comes on to ignite the fuel another graphic symbol illuminates.
The unit measures ambient temp in the enclosed area, and heater casing temperature (suppose to shut down if overheated).
It may have a GPS, or at least measures altitude (shows me our altitude), probably to get the right fuel to air mix.
It has a clock, and two different time settings so you can set the unit to come on at set times.
The controller can regulate the hertz to the fuel pump for high or low fuel volume, or anywhere in between. (or set to automatic)
It can also control fan speed. (or set to automatic)
It measures line voltage and will shut off if the battery gets below your set voltage so you don't drain the battery.

All that is nice if the temp setting for automatic on and off works. I notified the company and they want to make sure I have everything set right. By several different comparisons I do. They also admitted.... "Yes, sometime the temperature won't shut off automatically."

After the package mixup, and this malfunction, I can't recommend the unit. I was thinking today it would be nice to have a simple controller with manual off/on and a dial or number to hold the desired temp. It's all I need. We'll see how they handle the problem further. I have a few more days before my right to file a dispute expires. I want to give them a chance to set it right before I go that route.

For a few more $ there are Chinese sellers that have product warehoused on the USA. Based on this experience that would be a better way to go IMO.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
AKMel



Joined: 13 Jan 2017
Posts: 47
City/Region: Gustavus
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-esta
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Latest update for those interested:
Joining a forum where you can post questions about these Chinese heaters is very educational. The instruction manual that came with it is poor English and, for me, ridiculous when it comes to helping set up the controller. I recommend a forum to anyone who purchases one. There are also a number of good Youtube videos, but I haven't found an adequate one for troubleshooting. My controller, which seems to be the latest generation, does issue 10 different error codes if it detects something wrong.

The design is apparently closer to a Webasto than an Espar. Users informed me the controller does not shut the heater off when "set" temp is reached like my Espar. It only scales back the fuel and leaves it on the lowest setting. So no matter what the "set" temp when I start the heater, the unit comes on. I've learned to live with that. Thus the unit only comes on high if the "set" temp is above the ambient temp. I'm hoping running a lot on low setting doesn't carbon up the combustion chamber prematurely. Also, the controller does not shut off (go dark). It dims, but stays on. I'm told the current draw is so low the LCD doesn't drain the battery.

I do apparently have a small malfunction in my LCD controller, but not for temp issues. They have offered to reimburse me for a new one. We'll see how that goes. It's only $20 and I have one on order.

The LCD controller is hard to use at times, with multiple combinations of buttons and a many advanced settings capabilities. One can set several combustion parameters. That's a nice feature, but I haven't tried it yet. One pretty much needs a gasses analyzer to do that right.

My sellers customer service is via text, and again I experienced very poor English. They had trouble understanding my descriptions of problems. Consequently they would point me in the wrong direction repeatedly. I am of the opinion that a foreign company that wants to do business with an English speaking country should elevate their English proficiency.

I'm more satisfied than I was in my previous post. The heater does what it is suppose to. I'll make this my last post unless there are questions. Sorry, no photo album so no pix.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
san juanderer



Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 234
City/Region: Stanwood
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1990
C-Dory Model: 22 Angler
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad that the contributor has come to a positive conclusion, the price point is amazing and it supplies heat ( sounds like more than enough heat ). The situation is a double edged sword, not like your home where your power is hooked to the power grid.
During start up, the glow plug uses significant amperage.
If your power source is unlimited, turn ON and OFF all you want.
But the manufacturer recognizes that 12 volt systems typically are a defined amount of energy. So they have designed a system that keeps the heater running on a low setting, avoiding the start-up high energy situation.
Being able to sit in a cozy warm boat cabin is pretty nice.
PS. My Webasto hydronic system works the same way, it cost me $ 695 out of some Canadian outlet. Significantly less than any local source.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Marco Flamingo



Joined: 09 Jul 2015
Posts: 1154
City/Region: Seattle
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2004
C-Dory Model: 16 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Limpet
Photos: Limpet
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The glow plug draw during on and off cycling is the only thing that bothers me. On a CD 16, my little Espar can heat the cabin from below freezing to temperate in 15 minutes. It draws a lot during the first several minutes while running the glow plug. Then it drops even when the fan is running full blast. Then the fan slows down to a whisper for 15 to 20 minutes with barely any draw. Then, because even blowing at idle it heats the cabin more than necessary, it shuts off. 20 minutes later it turns on again, with the large draw on the glow plug.

Having the glow plug draw more than once an hour would be a concern at anchorage except for a couple of things. I don't run it overnight even though I have checked the exhaust (and muffler) for possible leaks and have a gas detector on board. I rationalize that by admitting to myself that heat on a 16 foot "cabin cruiser" is a decadent luxury, not a necessity. I can live with my nose getting cold while I sleep ("live" being the operative word). It's more important to me that I wake up in the morning.

Likewise, I'm not troubled by the fluctuation in temperature caused by the cycling when running the motor and the draw of the glow plug isn't an issue. I sometimes have to lean over and adjust the thermostat when underway. What a huge inconvenience (not). I'm warm and dry (or getting warm and dry). If cycling is a problem, I can open a window to keep the heater running, as using a few drops of kerosene might at times be better than repeatedly drawing on the battery for the glow plug.

I tend to look at the heat issue as I do with hot water. Some complain that they run out of hot water. My response is "What, you have hot water?"

Mark
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Sea Wolf



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 8650
City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reading much of the above, it seems that what is needed is a scaled down heating unit, with variable output, one that could operate at 500 to say 5000 or more btu's, continuously.

I'm not sure, though, if the mechanics and combustion dynamics would work at those dimensions and output levels with diesel.

It could definitely be done with propane/butane, but there go the safety advantages of liquid low flash point diesel over explosive gases like propane and butane.

For what it worth, I had a Force 10 Cozy Cabin propane heater in my CD-22 that could be throttled back to very low levels, since the burner was essentially the same as a small propane cooking stove.

Fun to think about! Laughing

Joe. Teeth Thumbs Up

_________________
Sea Wolf, C-Brat #31
Lake Shasta, California

"Most of my money I spent on boats and women. The rest I squandered'. " -Annonymous
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
pcg



Joined: 31 Aug 2018
Posts: 405
City/Region: Sherwood
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Quest
Photos: pcg
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sea Wolf wrote:

It could definitely be done with propane/butane, but there go the safety advantages of liquid low flash point diesel over explosive gases like propane and butane.
That's true, but the safety issue is dealt with by following rules for proper installation and use - as we do with natural gas, gasoline, and 120VAC.

Having owned an RV for over 20 years, I'm comfortable with propane. Several hundred thousand RVs are sold in the US every year, with propane heat. Even though I'm comfortable with propane on a boat, the decision still isn't simple. As always, it comes down to tradeoffs...

Diesel heat:
Initial cost: Chinese heaters = $300 or less, Wallas 22GB = $2600
Fuel energy density: 50% more BTUs per gallon than propane.
Start up time: Several minutes to get substantial heat.
Electrical draw: Glow plug requires a lot to start, then just fan.
Noise: Fan noise pales next to burner noise. All are noisy except Wallas.
Maintenance: Burners need removal and cleaning every year.
Safety: Diesel fumes not explosive at room temp. Requires CO detector.

Propane heat:
Initial cost: $800
Fuel energy density: Substantially less than diesel.
Start up time: Instant heat.
Electrical draw: Almost nothing to start. Only draw is fan.
Noise: Quiet. Only fan noise.
Maintenance: None
Safety: Propane explosive at room temp. Requires propane locker, propane detector, CO detector.

If you're comfortable with a properly installed propane locker and appropriate detectors, here's a nice little 6,500 BTU forced air propane heater...
https://www.vancafe.com/HS2000-p/hs2000.htm?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_K7CpIHx4AIVxx-tBh0UcQOOEAAYAiAAEgK-kfD_BwE

_________________
Paul
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 4523
City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2009
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Traveler
Photos: C-Traveler and Midnight-Flyer
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure, but I believe propane heaters add more moisture to our already condensating cabins... I have the Webasto, and after two years use did tear it apart to clean the burner. While there was some suet, it would have been fine to have left it alone. I think it does help to insure that when you run it, before shutting it down, you let it run at full burner for 20-30 minutes. Colby
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
pcg



Joined: 31 Aug 2018
Posts: 405
City/Region: Sherwood
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Quest
Photos: pcg
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are correct when referring to non-vented furnaces. Any propane heater that is not direct vented has the potential to add moisture and CO to the air, as well as deplete the O2 level.

The propane furnace I linked to above has a closed burner system, just like the diesel heaters, so it doesn't add any moisture to the air. The combustion chamber (along with combustion intake and exhaust ports) is sealed and isolated from the fresh air intake and exhaust ports. It's identical to the forced air furnaces in RVs.

I've researched propane "fireplaces" and some are direct vented and some are not. I believe that the Cozy Cabin propane heater that Joe had in his 22 was NOT direct vented so, yes, it would add moisture to the air. (Joe please correct me if I am wrong!) OTOH, the Newport propane fireplace heaters ARE direct vented.

I love the cozy ambience of fireplace heaters and they use practically no electricity (they draw a tiny amount of power for CO and O2 sensors), but the downside is that they have no provision for ducting forced air.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sea Wolf



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 8650
City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pcg-

Thanks for your comments.

The Force 10 Cozy Cabin Heater I was using was directly vented to the outside via a 1" stainless pipe, etc. It also used cabin air for combustion, which helped rid the cabin of moisture.

I'd be just fine with the propane heater you mentioned.

I didn't really fear the one I had in my CD-22, just carefully respected the limitations and possible dangers it represented.

I had all the necessary detectors, shut off valves, locker provisions, etc.

However, we do, around here in C-Brat Land, get a lot of warnings about the dangers of using propane in a boat, so I was responding to the anticipated forthcoming concerns. ( Some of the anecdotal accounts of bad outcomes have been frightening.)

It would be interesting to compare the statistics concerning fire, explosions, suffocation (asphyxiation), and whatever else, between RV and marine use of propane when used for heating.

Nice talking with you. Stay safe!

Joe. Teeth Thumbs Up
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The C-Brats Forum Index -> General Chat All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
     Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum



Page generation time: 0.1585s (PHP: 89% - SQL: 11%) - SQL queries: 33 - GZIP disabled - Debug on