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localboy
Joined: 30 Sep 2006 Posts: 4656 City/Region: Lake Stevens via Honolulu
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: 'Au Kai (Ocean Traveler)
Photos: 'AU KAI
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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Here is how I look at it. German engineering or Chinese engineering. Hmmm. Let me think about that.
Ever used Harbor Freight tools? Ever drive a German car?
Nuff said. _________________ "We can go over there...behind the 'little one'....."
Wife to her husband pointing @ us...from the bow of their 50-footer; Prideaux Haven 2013 |
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hardee
Joined: 30 Oct 2006 Posts: 12633 City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
Photos: SleepyC
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Mark, I love your logic.
Harvey
SleepyC
_________________ Though in our sleep we are not conscious of our activity or surroundings, we should not, in our wakefulness, be unconscious of our sleep. |
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pcg
Joined: 31 Aug 2018 Posts: 408 City/Region: Sherwood
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Quest
Photos: pcg
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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localboy wrote: |
Ever used Harbor Freight tools? | I've had very good experiences with HF tools. You have to be careful what you buy, but in general their tools are high value for my purposes. I've purchased floor jacks, hand trucks, a vise, large hammer drill, steel bar bender, and more. Very happy with all of it and saved LOTS of money.
localboy wrote: |
Ever drive a German car?
| Yes. Had a VW Rabbit and loved it. Bought it new in '78 and I understand the quality and reliability has gone down since then. I've driven Porsche and Audi. They were fun, but I can't afford them and the owner's I know complain that they are often in the shop and expensive to maintain. Toyota on the other hand...
I certainly get your point and in many cases it's valid, but things aren't always that cut and dry. Politics aside, if a Chinese or Russian heater is a bit rough around the edges, but it can be determined that it does the job and is reliable and safe, AND costs 1/5 to 1/2 of the cost of a German one, I'll enjoy the warmth it provides just as much as that provided by a spendy German heater, and put the money I saved towards an autopilot. _________________ Paul |
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ssobol
Joined: 27 Oct 2012 Posts: 3374 City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:32 am Post subject: |
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The reliability of cars has been demonstrated to be inversely proportional to their list price.
Some Chinese and Eastern European products may be kind of crude compared to some Western European products. But generally speaking almost anyone can repair them with common tools. Your fine German automobile might be nice when it runs, but when it doesn't you need a highly skilled technician with a room full of computer equipment to tell you which expensive custom part needs to be replaced.
In the example video of the Chinese Webasco knock off, the point is made that the control module of the Webasco is potted and sealed where as the Chinese one is not and has exposed components. The conclusion is that the Webasco must be better. However, if the control module of the Webasco fails due some individual component failure, the whole control module must be replaced. On the Chinese on you can simply replace the defect part for maybe a buck or two and carry on. The Webasco control module probably costs at least a $100. So which one is actually better? Depends on your point of view.
Diesel heaters are not rocket science. The principle of operation is well known and they are pretty easy to make. Given that the Chinese are world leaders in some types of technology, building a reliable and robust heater should be no big deal for them. |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20813 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | The reliability of cars has been demonstrated to be inversely proportional to their list price. |
Yugo
We just traded in an Audi A6. It was trouble free--except-the sensor systems alignment costs were outrageous. (A stolen sensor cost about $5,000 to replace. The sensor cost about $150. All of the auxiliary systems and alignment were what cost.
Probably the basic Harbor Freight "tools" are OK--and I have a couple power tools, purchased for limited use.--but I have had some early failures--and try and stick with better brands, such as Milwaukee, DeWalt or Porter Cable. I have had better luck with Ryobi--even if they don't have as good a reputation.
Sorry for the derail...back to heaters. _________________ Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL |
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ssobol
Joined: 27 Oct 2012 Posts: 3374 City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:25 am Post subject: |
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thataway wrote: | Quote: | The reliability of cars has been demonstrated to be inversely proportional to their list price. |
Yugo
... |
Ok, there are some exceptions.
I had experience with Mercedes. One day the transmission would not shift out of first. A chip failed in the transmission computer. But only a Mercedes tech could diagnose the problem and it took several days to get the replacement part. $1500 about 10 years ago. FWIW, this Mercedes had no user serviceable components in the transmission. You could not even check the fluid quantity. |
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localboy
Joined: 30 Sep 2006 Posts: 4656 City/Region: Lake Stevens via Honolulu
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: 'Au Kai (Ocean Traveler)
Photos: 'AU KAI
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | on the Chinese on you can simply replace the defect part for maybe a buck or two and carry on. The Webasco control module probably costs at least a $100. |
You are assuming one could even GET the part. A part also made in China. Good luck with that.
Quote: | Given that the Chinese are world leaders in some types of technology, building a reliable and robust heater should be no big deal for them. |
The Chinese rarely “lead” in anything technical. They copy, steal and reproduce inferior items, often labeling them fraudulently as the real McCoy. |
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Pandion
Joined: 02 Oct 2013 Posts: 274 City/Region: Kenmore
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Osprey
Photos: Osprey
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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Do any of you remember back in the '50s when the words, "Made in Japan" were a joke, synonymous with cheaply made junk? When, for example, if you couldn't afford an American-made baseball, you could buy a Japanese thing-that-looked-like-a-hardball for a quarter? And how the first solid contact with a Louisville Slugger bat would literally knock the stuffing out of it?
Times sure have changed. Japanese products got better and better over the years, to the point where they are frequently more reliable (I loved my old Toyota Tercel and only retired it after I could see pavement through the floorboards) than the American and European competition.
Chinese-manufactured products are undoubtedly on the same path. The Apple products I own (iPhone, iPad and MacBook) are reliable examples of superior manufacturing quality control. My MacBook Pro is ten years old and still running strong.
Still, whenever I consider buying something made in that totalitarian country, I have to ignore my conscience. Chances are my shiny new toy will have been built in something resembling a slave labor camp. _________________
Andy Ryan
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AKMel
Joined: 13 Jan 2017 Posts: 47 City/Region: Gustavus
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-esta
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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The heater arrived. It's been an interesting journey. 1) the Chinese gave me the wrong tracking number. That package went to someone in Indiana. 2) I filed a dispute 3) the seller got back to me with the correct tracking number, which showed the package had been at our post office for two weeks. 4) I got a message from the seller that I should get right down there or the USPS would send it back to China. 5) The next correspondence from them was to wait another ten days. (??? a little contradiction there). I had no post office notification of a package waiting, but went down this morning and to my surprise the heater was there.
I did a quick unbox and everything seems in order. It comes with a 30 page manual (typical poor translation into English, but I expected that).
Page 29 is a copy of the CE certification. I talked to my son-in-law about that (He's European) and he said it can't be sold in Europe without that, and added that CE is a tough safety standard. That makes me feel better about the product. That, and the fact I haven't seen any safety complaints in reviews. That is for my comfort. Draw your own conclusions.
The actual unit seems only slightly different dimensions than the Espar I put on the boat. It measures 13.5" x 4.5" x 4.5", not including the combustion and exhaust air portals, which add another 1.25".
The sticker states this one is what I ordered, 1KW - 2KW. That should be about the output of my Espar. The ducts are similar in diameter to the Espar also.
This unit also comes with a number of things the Espar didn't have. 1) a 10 liter fuel tank. 2) electronic control panel, which issues fault codes for troubleshooting. 3) remote control. 4). an exhaust muffler. 5) an intake filter for combustion air.
So far I'm pleased. ASAP I'll set it up on the bench and give it at test, and let you know how that went. _________________ Mel
My idea of a tragedy is a deduction killed by a fact.
2008 22 Cruiser 2017-present
2003 Alumaweld Intruder 2012-present |
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ssobol
Joined: 27 Oct 2012 Posts: 3374 City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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How much did your heater cost? |
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AKMel
Joined: 13 Jan 2017 Posts: 47 City/Region: Gustavus
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-esta
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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$158. But there seems to have been a Paypal surcharge added, bringing the total to $163. That's for the 2KW. |
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lloyds
Joined: 02 Aug 2005 Posts: 1724 City/Region: sublimity
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1996
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: undecided
Photos: 1996 22 Cruiser (Lloyds)
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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I watched the you tube videos of those Chinese heaters and compared to my wallas 1300 they are extremely loud. That would be a problem for me. Sitting next to an operating 1300 you can barely hear it. |
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tsturm
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 1134 City/Region: Soldotna
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: JMR TOO
Photos: JMR-TOO
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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AKMel wrote: | The heater arrived. It's been an interesting journey. 1) the Chinese gave me the wrong tracking number. That package went to someone in Indiana. 2) I filed a dispute 3) the seller got back to me with the correct tracking number, which showed the package had been at our post office for two weeks. 4) I got a message from the seller that I should get right down there or the USPS would send it back to China. 5) The next correspondence from them was to wait another ten days. (??? a little contradiction there). I had no post office notification of a package waiting, but went down this morning and to my surprise the heater was there.
I did a quick unbox and everything seems in order. It comes with a 30 page manual (typical poor translation into English, but I expected that).
Page 29 is a copy of the CE certification. I talked to my son-in-law about that (He's European) and he said it can't be sold in Europe without that, and added that CE is a tough safety standard. That makes me feel better about the product. That, and the fact I haven't seen any safety complaints in reviews. That is for my comfort. Draw your own conclusions.
The actual unit seems only slightly different dimensions than the Espar I put on the boat. It measures 13.5" x 4.5" x 4.5", not including the combustion and exhaust air portals, which add another 1.25".
The sticker states this one is what I ordered, 1KW - 2KW. That should be about the output of my Espar. The ducts are similar in diameter to the Espar also.
This unit also comes with a number of things the Espar didn't have. 1) a 10 liter fuel tank. 2) electronic control panel, which issues fault codes for troubleshooting. 3) remote control. 4). an exhaust muffler. 5) an intake filter for combustion air.
So far I'm pleased. ASAP I'll set it up on the bench and give it at test, and let you know how that went. |
Nice to know your Post Office is of the same <quality as the Soldotna one
Good luck with your heater keep us posted.
Thanks. |
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tsturm
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 1134 City/Region: Soldotna
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: JMR TOO
Photos: JMR-TOO
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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lloyds wrote: | I watched the you tube videos of those Chinese heaters and compared to my wallas 1300 they are extremely loud. That would be a problem for me. Sitting next to an operating 1300 you can barely hear it. |
The wallas 1300 are great, until you have it on while running, hit a wave or two & the little white hot ignitor coil breaks
Been on that ride.
Have a good one. |
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colbysmith
Joined: 02 Oct 2011 Posts: 4551 City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2009
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Traveler
Photos: C-Traveler and Midnight-Flyer
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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My webasto sounds like a little jet engine when it's running. But the warmth is great!!! And a little white noise when the waves aren't doing much is good also! Colby |
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