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C-Dory 26 Venture vs. Lakes Michigan and Huron
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shloots



Joined: 19 Dec 2018
Posts: 12
City/Region: Leland
State or Province: MI
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:10 am    Post subject: C-Dory 26 Venture vs. Lakes Michigan and Huron Reply with quote

Brand new member, so this question has probably already been addressed...please be patient with me. We just sold a 31 foot sailboat that we sailed from Northern Lower Peninsula Michigan to the North Channel on Lake Huron for 15 years. We are looking into smaller trawler-type boats, and the C-Dory 26 Venture has caught our eyes because of its trailerability and boat-yard free management needs. Given the frequent 3-5+ waves on both of these great lakes, does anyone have direct experience as to how this boat handles these type of conditions?
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ken35216



Joined: 12 Mar 2013
Posts: 491
City/Region: Destin, Florida
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2017
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Lady Onyx
Photos: ken35216
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: C-Dory 26 Venture vs. Lakes Michigan and Huron Reply with quote

I've had my 25 C-Dory in closely spaced 5 ft waves for hours, heading up Tampa Bay, and it handled it great. I had to slow down and it wasn't pleasant but no danger. The 26 Venture would handle it even better.
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South of Heaven



Joined: 15 Aug 2015
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City/Region: Stoughton
State or Province: MA
Photos: Blue Water
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paging Dr. Foggy. I'm surprised he hasn't given his 2 cents yet. Aye, Aye..... Smile
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2000 Camano 31 Troll (Volvo TAMD41p) FOR SALE

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2000/Camano-Troll-3246166/Boston/MA/United-States?refSource=standard%20listing#.W5EZuCRKij4

2007 C Dory 25' Cruiser (200 hp Suzuki, sold 7/17)

2003 C Dory 19' Angler (80 hp Yamaha, sold 7/16)

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Catman



Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 1322
City/Region: Seattle
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2017
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Songbird (Bambina, 16')
Photos: Bambina
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shloots, for what it's worth, I find heading into four and five foot waves closely spaced undeniably unpleasant in my 23' Venture. I hate 'em. Now, three footers head on, okay. But I need to tack those four and five footers, because I refuse to pound if I can at all help it. I'm often looking to see how I can use wind and tide in my favor. Too, out here waves provide excellent camouflage for deadheads. I just dinged a blade last trip out in three to five footers.
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Morning Star



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 107
City/Region: St. Petersburg
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Morning Star
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:24 pm    Post subject: Re: C-Dory 26 Venture vs. Lakes Michigan and Huron Reply with quote

I owned a 26 Venture for several years that I operated in the Gulf of Mexico and coastal waters around Destin, FL. I encountered conditions you describe occasionally and found that the boat handled them well with the bow trimmed down and speed slowed to accommodate the conditions. Sometimes it was necessary to tack the boat to keep a safe and relatively comfortable angle to the seas. I wouldn’t choose to go out in rough conditions, but always felt safe when I encountered them. The 26 Venture is a great boat that can likely handle more than the operator.
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dgeorges



Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 101
City/Region: Springfield
State or Province: IL
C-Dory Year: 1985
C-Dory Model: 16 Angler
Vessel Name: OPA!
Photos: OPA!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been working the waters of Lake Michigan from Kenosha, WI, South to Gary, IN and North to Manistee, MI chasing salmonids since 2011. My boat of choice so far has been a lovely CD16 Angler. Lake Michigan is a fical old girl and has tested the boat every chance she gets.

I have experienced some incredible wave events in my CD 16, and NOT by choice. You'll be out n 2 ft waves trolling along, and the wind will change. In a heartbeat, you can see great walls of waves coming at you and before you know it, you're working 6 to 8 ft unpredictable waves. I can tell you that my CD16 has done an incredible job of taking on big waves and getting us back to port.

I don't seek the rough water out, it happens. No matter how hard you study the weather, wave predictions, etc before you go out; stuff happens out there when the big lake decides to act up.

Rest assured that these CD's are designed for the big water, IF you have the skills to handle the navigation of same big water. I fished with a guy for a number of years who was a graduate of the California Maritime Academy. We would ride 15 ft swells outta Bodega Bay, CA in search of salmon water. He thought the rest of us some incredible skills on how to work the big water. His #1 advice? NEVER TURN YOUR BACK ON THE WATER. You follow that rule, and you'll have many safe returns to port.



Cheers.

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shloots



Joined: 19 Dec 2018
Posts: 12
City/Region: Leland
State or Province: MI
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:54 am    Post subject: Thank you for the comments Reply with quote

Being new to these forums, and also wanting to be polite without being an email nuisance, I want to thank those who have responded to my question about the 26 Venture vs. big waves. Your comments are very helpful and have moved me closer to that decision. I'm going to assume that I don't need to thank every person that responds, but know that I am grateful for your thoughts.
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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shloots

Sorry, (well not really) that I don't have a V-26 to report exactly but I have had my 22 in 4-6 foot waves on several occasions, I have run side by side with a CD-25 head into 4-5 foot waves for about a 3 hour stretch, and I have had my 22 in following seas (aft port quarter) of 8 - 10 foot for a 2 hour stretch. None of these situations did I intend to be in initially, and at no time did I feel threatened, or unsafe. You do have to slow down, and I have buried my bow, sometimes clear to the dog house into green water, BUT, the bow always pops up, the boat does not (usually) slam if I am paying attention, and I have always come home safe.

Would I chose to get into those conditions. NO, Never. Crossing Juan de Fuca I don't go if I have winds at 12 knots, or waves over 2 feet, but in that 25 mile stretch, I often go through lots of changes in surface and wind conditions.

Your V-26 will be bigger and heavier and should handle the small chop (1-2 feet) even up to 3 foot with trim tabs down into head seas you should be fine and fairly comfortable depending on speed.

Harvey
SleepyCMoon


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westward



Joined: 17 Feb 2005
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Photos: Steady Eddy
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The boat will safely handle those conditions, but it is not the hull design best suited for those conditions. If you will frequently be boating in 3-5' wind waves I'd suggest looking for something better designed to handle them: heavier and more of a v-hull. Or perhaps a RIB style vessel?
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would tend to agree with Westward, about the choice of a hull for the short based heavy chop. What percent of time will you have these conditions?

Also a Venture 26 has made the run from San Francisco to Catalina Island on the West Coast of Calif. a number of times. I have friends in 40 foot sailboats who have been turned back by conditions on this run...but the Venture 26 took their time--and ran most when the conditions were favorable.

The boats are good and seaworthy--but under those conditions they will be going at slow speeds. 5' is too much for the Tom Cat--the best of the C Dory line in chop.

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Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
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Home port: Pensacola FL
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colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
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City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Midnight Flyer
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shloots, all the above posters have a lot of experience and knowledge with their boatsl. But take a look at where they are from. Ocean swells and waves are not the same as what we face in the Great Lakes. That being said, I have had my 22 regularly in 2-4' "chop" of Lakes Michigan and Superior. Just slow down to under 10 kts. The boats flat bottom will beat! I've also gotten into 4-5', both on the bow and following. Not real comfortable, but the boat can handle it. Once on Lake Huron in the North Channel I got caught in some 6-8' on my bow. I was down to about 3 kts and definitely not comfortable watching green water come over my bow. But the boat stayed afloat. I owned a Searay 268 Sundancer before my 22. Perhaps it's my experience and confidence level now days, compared to where I was at with the 268, but I feel safer in my C-Dory on Lake Michigan than I did the Searay. I have to imagine the 26 will do just fine in our typical 2-4' chop. And I'm sure it will handle the stuff a bit larger than that. But you will need to slow down. Colby
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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
Photos: SleepyC
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"....I have run side by side with a CD-25 head into 4-5 foot waves for about a 3 hour stretch,...."


That was the roughest passage I have made. From Glendale Cove west down Knight Inlet to Gilford Island and Seargents Passage, the first place to really get out of it on the way to Lagoon Cove. It was a wind against current for about 18 miles, and much of the time we were running about 4 knots, rarely 6. I know I said 3 hours, It was probably more like 4 and it felt like 8.

And yes, I agree with Colby, we do have different water here. You have fresh, we have salt. We have swells that start somewhere east of Japan and will have a period, (time between crests of 15 up to 30 or 40 seconds. And then there are waves, waves are generated by wind and do not have such long periods. It is not uncommon to see them in the 5 second bracket and a 10 second wind wave is long. With those waves you do a lot of hobby horsing, power up and back off at the crest to keep from the pounding, then power up and back off. In those waves, (my usual cruising speed is about 5 knots) that would be rushing and pounding, so I might be down to 2.5 or 3 knots water speed. A 5 second wave period isn't much longer than a 22 foot boat. It doesn't take much wind to make wind waves when the tidal current is opposing at 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 knots and due to bottom configurations, we have varying water speeds so a westerly wind at 10 knots can produce waves of from 1 to 3 feet if the tidal current is running ebb in Juan de Fuca, or for that much, anywhere along the east coast of Vancouver Island or even down into the Salish, though there is much more north/south action there.

I am curious what makes waves in the Great Lakes different? Long fetch, higher winds, shallow bottoms or ??? I know I hear about that often, but other than the salt vs fresh water, I don't see a big difference. The weight of water is still close, The physics rules still apply, so what is it really?

The point is, the C-Dory can take much more than you will want to. To keep it from slapping, or crashing you have to slow down to a speed that will allow the boat to rock over the top of the wave, slide down the next face, maintain control and keep from diving into the next wave.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon

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shloots



Joined: 19 Dec 2018
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City/Region: Leland
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:36 am    Post subject: Great Lakes wavers Reply with quote

All the cruising waves we experience are caused by wind...shore waves are increased by the depth of the water, but then we don't cruise much along the shore except on nice quiet evenings. Being on the east side of Lake Michigan, facing primarily west and northwest, the wind has a lot of area to pick up speed before it gets to us, so we frequently experience winds of 20 kits and higher...not daily, but frequently. We have noticed an increase frequency and in the general wind speed over the years for the waters we cruise. We also experience very navigable waters with great weather much of the time. I want to have a boat that will manage the higher winds when they do come, and they show up quickly some times. According to all of you who have responded, although not a deep v and not a particularly heavy boat, which comes with its own concerns, mainly expense, it sounds like the C-dory is a very capable boat. You all have been very helpful with your input...thank you!
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westward



Joined: 17 Feb 2005
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Photos: Steady Eddy
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Schloots:

Being frugal by nature and inclined towards simplicity, I share your notions re the added expense with heavier/deep V hull forms. However many years of boating have taught me that fuel cost is just a tiny fraction of the overall cost of boat ownership. Problem is, it's one of the most immediately obvious when actually out boating.

Save for the Tomcat and the 29' Venture, the entire C-Dory line is lightweight with low deadrise. You almost could not choose a worse hull form if you will regularly operate in steep 3-5' spiky wind chop like you get on the great lakes. Yes you could slow down to 4 knots, and yes the boats are safe and handle predictably, but in those conditions you get the hell beat out of you: When you slam down off a 3' wave the entire boat rattles with impact and it's quite jarring. In his classic book River Horse, author William Least Heat Moon describes the experience (in a CD 22) as "shattering". That's my experience having owned and operated 3 C-Dory boats. That there are other hull forms which are better suited to the aforementioned conditions does not mean the C-Dory is a bad boat; in fact it is a great boat for many uses including ocean swells, shallow areas, and camping areas best accessed by trailer.

Before investing I'd strongly suggest taking a test ride in the above conditions. The proof will be in the pudding.

Best, Mike
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ride in any of the monohull C Dory's depend on the operator's skills in handling the boat. This includes having the trim tabs and Permatrim foil, to get the bow down--and use that part of the boat to "cut" thru the chop. Having owned a 22 without either trim tabs and the foil--and a 25 with only tabs, then adding the foil--The ride in steep short chop--which is what we experience on the bay where I live, can be mitigated. Also not going directly into the chop--going off to one side and finding the course which gives the best ride is key to handling and a smoother ride.

There are plenty of other trade-offs with the extreme deep V hulls (24*/26*).

I definitely agree that one should not buy a Venture 26 or C Dory 25 without taking a ride in one first. I always try and do a sea trial on the roughest waters available. There is plenty of short steep chop in the PNW as well as Gulf Coast- especially if there is wind against current. It has been extremely rare that we could not run due to wind driven chop.
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